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It might sound weird to say this about the impact of a website, but Bandcamp really has transformed my musical interests and, as a result, my life. I have been able to cultivate & help support a small, shifting, virtual community of artists and listeners that I learned from over the past 13 years. So, it is very sad to hear about the recent sell-off, layoffs and plunder.
cc/ @bandcampunited
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This post from @pettter has me wondering if there are any efforts yet to start to think about what a similar #coop run service might look like?
https://mastodon.acc.umu.se/@pettter/111249022267794376
It seems like Bandcamp is past the startup stage where it could #ExitToCommunity?
https://www.colorado.edu/lab/medlab/2020/08/31/exit-community-community-primer
As much as I personally align with decentralization, there does seem to be some value in a centralized platform for managing payments, storage and discovery for artists whose livelihood depends on trust.
2/3
If anyone has any leads for how to tap into, or start, a conversation about what a #coop run music platform like bandcamp could look like please let me know.
It seems like there must be a very large number of people who would be supportive of a cooperatively run AND FUN site like Bandcamp, that was self sustaining, supported artists, supported its workers, and had a clear governance model.
If it was open-source and could federate that would be great of course too. But first things first.
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PS. I might need to blame @dchud & 
️ for prompting this line of thinking. It's not the first time I've had wild ideas after a conversation with him :-)
@edsu I have similar feelings. Now in the weird position that my only(?) way to support those artists is to continue to use an intermediary which doesn't seem like a good actor any more.
@ldodds yes, it's all the more heartbreaking because I am certain the people working there (or who worked there) understand full well how much value what they were doing had, and that is why they formed a union.
https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/bandcamp-bargaining-union-layoffs-songtradr-18432047.php
I keep taggging the Bandcamp union @bandcampunited to see if they're interested.
Would it be an insider trading illegal thingy if the rest of the employees quit in solidarity and then bought the newely tanked company to make it a co-op / worker self-directed enterprise?
@kostyn @bandcampunited Yes I've been wondering something similar. I guess there may be NDAs at play?
It seems like (in theory) what @Gargron did for Mastodon riffing off of TweetDeck could be repeated for some new app that riffs off of Bandcamp?
@mike yes, I have a bit. It is easily installed with yunohost in fact!
Maybe this is offbase, but it seems to be oriented around decentralized sharing with friends than helping artists & labels get paid for their work and having fans who help support them?
I suspect those features could be added on? I also think there is value in having some centralization & governance so that artists can focus on their work rather than sysadmin? But maybe there could be a recognizable & trusted instance?
@edsu I don't know anything about it myself, only that it exists.
And yes, for regular bands to use it, it would need there to be one or more trusted hosts so they don't have to think about this stuff.
@edsu as there's at least three attempts - Resonate, Ampled and jam.coop - some who've been trying 5+ years - I wonder if the goal should be to develop/support open, interoperable and trustworthy infrastructure to allow 1000 new bandcamps & Patrons to emerge? Ie to be to Bandcamp what the Fediverse is to Twitter.. so musicians don't need to fear where they sign up as wherever they do, they can sell/stream/etc to anyone anywhere, and also easily migrate..
@edsu and if it isn't open source and it doesn't federate (ie build on FunkWhale/Castopod), then how is it different to the previous efforts?
More importantly, how does a musician, who wants to be making music not navigating platform politics, know the new effort won't go the same way as the others?
I can't find the link rn but there was a call from a group of musicians asking people to not start pitching the latest platform at them, that they don't want fads, they want a long term answer.
@nicol thanks for the reminder that this work has been ongoing and has been overshadowed by Bandcamp as it rose. Maybe this is a moment where artists can discover these alternatives and fans can follow them there? Have you seen a primer for artists who are looking to jump and need help navigating the choices?
I'm a software developer so I'm susceptible to the idea that it's a tooling problem. I do think tools matter, but maybe secondarily to governance and trust.
@nicol I forgot to say, if you can relocate that thread that would be awesome!
@edsu I will search on my desktop browser later.
I'd also be v happy to discuss this further. I've been thinking about decentralised/federatable indie media distribution /sustainability systems for a very long time. There *are* gaps in the tooling still, & while governance is key my gut tells me the DISCO model (federate not scale) is the best bet as it most closely approximates what indie music (labels/shops/venues) used to be like before the majors swallowed all, then Spotify swallowed them.
@edsu and just got an email from Ampled saying they will close at the end of the year : - (
But it reminded me I'd not followed up on this with the link from @radiofreefedi "we don't want artists to burnout on platform testing and jumping rather than be creating": https://musician.social/@radiofreefedi/111145880099548974
Nick 
@edsu check out https://retro.social/@ajroach42/111252007152556212 too if you haven't seen that already
@nick thanks Nick! I know tech is going to tech, but I will be interested to see if some of these efforts frontload the governance side of things and then get into how to assemble the various pieces. As much of a fan I am of decentralization, I think it needs to take a back seat to how the thing will be run once money starts moving around?
@edsu this is actually one persons analysis of why resonate failed to achieve their goals:
"I’ve always kind of had the opinion that Resonate does some amazing conceptual co-operative governance but that governance was way ahead of what the product (software) actually offered."
https://community.resonate.coop/t/addressing-our-current-crisis-community-input-needed/3605/9
@edsu much open source software seems to start by an initial burst of development "unencumbered" by process...
.. but whether it can later be community owned/run is unclear.
There are many pitfalls with either approach, community now vs later....
@nick interesting, yeah -- that's a good reminder that it's likely a sociotechnical problem that requires thinking about both governance and tooling at the same time. Thanks for the pointer to look closer at what is going on w/ Resonate.
@edsu I think resonate is a really great case study of the challenges in getting co-operative alternatives up and running.
I don't know if there is a proper write up of it somewhere to learn from, there should be... probably many different perspectives though... so much to learn from failure.
A while back I spent a while reading around on the forum to get a sense of what happened, sad times!
@nick I would read that blog post from you :-)
@edsu I'm so peripheral to the project (i.e. of no connection at all), and it would be quite some effort to do a fair job of it given the complexity of what seemed to happen. Maybe someone else could :)
@nick yeah understood ... this has been helpful what you've written so far, so thank you for doing that reading and sharing it here.
@nick the analogy to mastodon in that post is interesting. What if there was software that looked and worked *exactly* like Bandcamp, and there was a flagship instance run as a coop? They've already demonstrated that it works from a usability perspective, but failed on the side of making it sustainable for artists, fans and workers.
(Oh and it's open source and could federate, yadayadayada)
@edsu I dunno the admin of it, but I believe the only technical feasible way would be if distributed traffic.
Currently, the more famous a band is, the higher the traffic and higher the bill. A system where you could distribute traffic along fans would flip this dynamic, the more famous the easier to stream.
But of course, peer2peer technology has been demonized by the gatekeepers *exactly* because it renders them useless.
There are certain browsers that use this technology of distribution.
@nonlinear are you thinking of Brave support for IPFS? I know PeerTube uses webtorrent which I believe lets you do torrent downloads in any JavaScript + WebRTC supporting browser?
It would be interesting to learn more about Bandcamp's infrastructure for streaming. I believe their downloads come from Fastly CDN. Having infrastructure set up to Just Work and not be some tech experiment is part of why working with the web we have is important.
@edsu The issue is apple... Lemme tell you what's going on.
Apple, to maintain the 30% cut they get from app store, demand that any browser for iOS to in fact use Safari engine, with just bells and whistles on top.
All iOS browsers are in fact safari, a browser that willingly refuses to accept new browser features like P2P sharing (like IPFS and others).
Of course, since Apple profits twice from rejecting modern browsers.
@edsu Apple does *worse* than when Microsoft bundled explorer browser as default on Windows machines and were sued for it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp.
I wish people knew more about it, because it's a clearly an antitrust issue. It's worse than default it's mandatory.
@nonlinear I can believe it! But Webtorrent runs on Safari just fine?
I think what IPFS are trying to do is important stuff, but I don't think success in replacing Bandcamp with something better is predicated on IPFS adoption?
@edsu I guess you can have any kinda app, but if it's a browser, it needs to be safari engine.
It's all very arbitrary, I know. But allowing modern browsers would mean death of apps, since tools could ask user to use so-and-so browser instead.
Maybe a full on app with p2p sharing features, but that means you still need to pay 30% to apple.
Or not. Netflix doesn't pay. It's a might is right situation.
@edsu And I dunno if IPFS is the solution. There's dav,others. It would be nice if app abstracts the engine it uses, as long as it's seamless to listeners.
But whatever Bandcamp alternative should use mastodon governance model (instances as servers, think record labels) and a p2p streaming engine.
@edsu Isn't webtorrent a front end for something on another server? I'm pretty sure the p2p work is not on the browser itself. Or is it? On iOS?
If yes, that's your way. But I bet it's just a frontend, running on a dedicated server. Still centralized.
@edsu I'm very interested in the subject. I'm not a developer, I'm a product/usability designer experienced in P2P (a lot of volunteer work in this area).
If you ever wanna doodle a band p2p approach, I'm game to try. https://zcal.co/nonlinear/commons
Just a doodle, an idea. Then we post to the community to poke holes, suggest improvements.
@nonlinear you know, I was just thinking this morning, that I replacing Bandcamp with something better is largely a UX / Design problem (apart from the governance issues). I think that's what Mastodon (copy TweetDeck) taught us about dislodging Twitter. If people have something familiar to use that isn't run by icky people they will start to move.
@nonlinear but getting the rough edges rounded off, and things looking beautiful is not a developer problem, and isn't really a decentralization problem either. Mastodon seemed to prioritize being usable, and being fun to use, and it helped a lot I think.
@nonlinear a good design is developed and honed over time to the point where users barely notice it anymore because it fits so well. Those designs should be learned from and built on and not reinvented (unless you need to, or have to).
@edsu Design is not to make things beautiful. It's to make things *usable*.
Beauty is one more tool in order to accomplish the goal of usefulness.
Usability overall reduces learning curve and with it rising adoption. Design is strategic, not just cosmetic.
@edsu I agree mastodon is better than twitter but not *truly* p2p.
So, rephrasing: if we can't get away from servers, it's best if they use mastodon model, with instances that interoperate + ways to migrate.
I do think it's a usability/product problem: tools may be there, but if not understood by the audience, it's as if it's not.
Usability drives adoption because it advocates for user. A tool that doesn't serve users (to listen, discover, publish) is yet another solution with no traction.
@edsu i didn't see anyone else reference Ampled in response to your thread thus far https://www.ampled.com/ - it's a bit more like Patreon - but Bandcamp has also gives artists a similar subscription feature
@edsu All of the Mastodon posts about #BandCamp should probably try to give a shout to @bandcampunited to give the Bandcamp workers a view into what else exists. Maybe some former Bandcamp employees would be interested in helping start/continue music co-ops.
@lwriemen @bandcampunited updating my post -- thanks for the reminder!