@PaulaToThePeople It isn't just a matter of consent. Besides, for example, I do have quote-post control here on Hubzilla.

I can give permission to quote-post my posts to

• everyone in the Fediverse
• everyone on Hubzilla and (streams)
• everyone on this hub
• approved and unapproved connections
• only approved connections
• only those of my connections whom I explicitly give permission by contact role
• nobody but myself

Over on (streams), I can still give that permission to

• everyone in the Fediverse
• all my connections
• only myself + specific connections whom I grant that permission either by permission role or by individual connection settings

It's much more a matter of technology.

Mastodon is about to completely re-invent the wheel with a non-standard, Mastodon-only setting. This setting will only work within Mastodon simply because it probably won't even be documented anywhere, especially not before it's officially rolled out.

There simply is no way that every last instance of Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp, CherryPick, Catodon, Meisskey, Tanukey, Neko, dozens of other Misskey forks, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte etc. etc. will have that setting implemented before Mastodon rolls it out so that even the users on mastodon.social are perfectly safe from the first second on.

Besides, @Mike Macgirvin , creator of Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte and still the only maintainer of the latter two, will never introduce proprietary Mastodon features to them. He'd rather risk (streams) and Forte becoming incompatible with Mastodon. The same goes for @Mario Vavti and @Harald Eilertsen, Hubzilla's main maintainers.

If Mastodon wants to become a perfectly safe haven against unallowed quote-posting, it has only got one choice: It must introduce something like (streams)' and Forte's user agent filter and use it to block just everything that isn't Mastodon. Like, include a hard-coded allowlist that only includes Mastodon plus what little can't quote or quote-post anyway.

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@PaulaToThePeople @Stefan Bohacek Keep one thing in mind:

Mastodon may not have quote-posts yet. But the Fediverse has quote-posts right now. And it has had them since before Mastodon was made.

Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp, CherryPick, Catodon, Meisskey, Tanukey, Neko, dozens of other Misskey forks, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte etc. etc., they all have quote-posts. They're all fully capable of quote-posting any Mastodon toot.

None of them has introduced quote-posts to harass Twitter refugees on Mastodon. At least Friendica and Hubzilla have had quote-posts since long before Mastodon was even made.

You will be able to choose whether your posts can be quoted at all.

At least by Mastodon users.

But since this will be Mastodon re-inventing the wheel with brand-new, proprietary, Mastodon-only technology, everything I've listed above will still be able to quote-post anyone and anything on Mastodon with zero resistance.

To quote-post myself and the guy who invented Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte:

Jupiter Rowland schrieb den folgenden Beitrag Sat, 20 Jul 2024 01:29:11 +0200 I think I've just chased someone out of the Fediverse.

That someone was afraid of Mastodon being "screwed over" by becoming quote-post-able.

I've told him the truth: Mastodon has been quote-post-able for as long as it has been around. Mastodon became quote-post-able the very moment it was launched.

That's because when Mastodon was launched, it immediately federated with Friendica which is from 2010, which had been around for almost six years at that point, and which has had quote-posts from its own inception AFAIK. Mastodon also immediately federated with Hubzilla which has had quote-posts since its own inception, since it had been forked from Friendica, and that was in 2012.

Mastodon has never been un-quote-post-able.

Right now, there are dozens of Fediverse server apps whose users can quote-post Mastodon toots with no resistance.

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Mike Macgirvin schrieb den folgenden Beitrag Sat, 20 Jul 2024 03:18:39 +0200 The closest you'll ever get to making Mastodon un-quote-postable is to post privately. Not unlisted. Private. Most fediverse software will honour this today; and it doesn't require yet another "pretend permission". Like unlisted.

And Mike should know. He brought things to the Fediverse like actually working permissions. Including permissions on two levels to quote-post any content on a channel. Readily available right now at least on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte.

Also, this is what people on Friendica and its descendants have been using quote-posts for since 2010.

You will be notified when someone quotes you.

You already are when someone on Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) or Forte quote-posts one of your posts.

As for Pleroma, Misskey and their forks, you aren't notified right now, and I've got my doubts that you will be after this change.

Also, "quote" and "quote-post" are two different things. Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte can do both. "Quote" is what I'm doing right here. Whether or not you're notified depends on whether or not you're mentioned.

And blocking quotes is even less possible. A quote only consists of a pair of BBcode tags plus the quoted text in-between. And on Friendica and all its descendants, you don't work with a WYSIWYG editor by default, but you have to get your hands dirty on raw markup code.

You will be able to withdraw your post from the quoted context at any time.

Again, probably not if someone on Pleroma, Misskey or one of their forks quote-posts you.

And definitely not if someone on Friendica or one of its descendants quote-posts you.

The difference is that a quote-post on Pleroma, Misskey or one of their forks is actually a reference to the original. On Friendica and its descendants, a quote-post is an automatically generated dumb copy of the original.

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@toolbear# From an outside-of-Mastodon point of view (I'm posting this from Hubzilla which is very, very much not like Mastodon), I can see schisms through the Fediverse happen quite easily.

For example:

• One side: Mastodon fundamentalists who want to enforce the Mastodon culture and the Mastodon "rules" (both as established by the first wave of Twitter refugees in the mid-2010s, based solely on Mastodon 3.x and completely ignoring the rest of the Fediverse) all over the whole Fediverse. And everything that doesn't comply must be defederated.
• The other side: Places that can do the same as Mastodon, but that aren't Mastodon, and that have their very own culture, not to mention features which are deeply engrained in their culture, but forbidden in Mastodon's culture. Pleroma and its forks. Misskey and its forks, fork-forks, fork-fork-rewrites etc. Friendica and its family tree. And so forth.

Or, although this may become obsolete:

• One side: Those on Mastodon who don't want to have quote-posts in the Fediverse.
• The other side: Again, just about everything that isn't Mastodon while capable of doing Mastodon things, because it all does have quote-posts right now.

A variant that's more likely to happen soon:

• One side: Mastodon, full stop. It has introduced quote-posts. It has also introduced a quote-post opt-in or opt-out switch. This switch, however, is proprietary, non-standard and completely incompatible with the rest of the Fediverse.
  On top of this, as demanded in that one quote-post feature request, there's a new rule for all Mastodon instances: Any and all Fediverse instances which "circumvent" Mastodon's quote-post opt-in or opt-out switch to quote-post Mastodon toots must be regarded "rogue" and Fediblocked.
• On the other side: Once again, just about everything that isn't Mastodon, but that can do what Mastodon can do. Once again, it can quote-post right now. It can also quote-post Mastodon toots right now. And it won't know that proprietary, non-standard, Mastodon-only opt-in or opt-out. So it can quote-post any and all Mastodon toots with zero resistance.

The logical result: All Mastodon instances must immediately block all instances of Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp-JS, Iceshrimp.NET, CherryPick, Sharkey, Catodon, Neko, Meisskey, Tanukey, Mitra, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte etc. etc. All instances of all of these have quote-posts. They can all quote-post Mastodon toots. And when Mastodon introduces the opt-in or opt-out switch, they won't know that switch. And what they don't know, they can't heed. So they'll still be able to quote-post any and all Mastodon toots, completely regardless (and oblivious) of opt-in or opt-out status.

This, however, is against the new rule that states that all instances that can quote-post toots that shall not be quote-posted must be blocked. Which applies to all of them. Thus, all of them, every last one of them, must be defederated.

If properly carried out, this would fully separate several dozen entire Fediverse server applications from Mastodon. The only reason why these server applications won't be fully separated is because it's a game of whack-a-mole. Mastodon can't defederate entire server applications by user agent (this is possible and actually implemented on both (streams) and Forte), so server applications have to be defederated instance by instance.

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@Stefan Bohacek

Also worth mentioning that quote boosts, which have also recently received funding, will include work on privacy and safety features around them, possibly extending to other areas of the online experience.

These "privacy and safety features" are non-sense.

They're proprietary, they're non-standard, they're Mastodon-specific. And they are expected to work only by respecting a proprietary, non-standard, Mastodon-specific quote-post permission flag which probably won't even be documented anywhere except Mastodon's server code.

The opt-out feature will only work within a 100% Mastodon bubble and even that only if no non-Mastodon user finds content from within this bubble by searching mastodon.social for hashtags.

Mastodon is selling its whole quote-post feature as a total revolution, as the very introduction of quote-posts to the Fediverse. And it will work. I've once run a poll on whether the Fediverse has quote-posts. 71% of all voters thought the Fediverse does not have quote-posts right now. And that was in my bubble which, in comparison to Mastodon in general, is fairly Fediverse-savvy and full of non-Mastodon users.

But as a matter of fact, the Fediverse does have quote-posts right now! Almost everything that can do microblogging in a way has quote-posts.

Pleroma has quote-posts.

Akkoma has quote-posts.

Misskey has quote-posts.

Firefish has quote-posts.

Iceshrimp has quote-posts.

Iceshrimp.NET has quote-posts.

Sharkey has quote-posts.

Catodon has quote-posts.

Friendica has quote-posts.

Hubzilla has quote-posts.

(streams) has quote-posts.

And so forth.

They haven't introduced quote-posts to spite Mastodon. Some of them have had quote-posts since before Mastodon even existed. Friendica, for example, was created with quote-posts available, and that was five and a half years before Mastodon was created. For as long as Mastodon has existed, Friendica could quote-post Mastodon toots. And so could Hubzilla, created ten months before Mastodon.

In fact, all of the above can quote-post any Mastodon toot right now, with no problems, with zero resistance.

Guess what'll change when Mastodon introduces quote-posts plus the opt-in switch.

Well, Mastodon will be able to quote-post. Mastodon might be able to display quote-posts from outside properly, but probably not because it's ignoring that the rest of the Fediverse can quote-post.

But the rest of the Fediverse will still be able to quote-post just about all Mastodon toots. With no problems. With zero resistance. Even with the opt-in switched to off.

Because that switch is proprietary, non-standard and Mastodon-specific. Because only Mastodon even supports it.

This switch will cause many many more Mastodon users to learn the hard way that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon. Namely by encountering a post or comment from something that does not behave like Mastodon. And many many more Mastodon users will shit bricks in sheer terror upon this revelation.

If Mastodon really wanted this switch to be 100% waterproof, it would have to implement the feature request in its entirety. That includes defederation from all Fediverse instances that don't respect the opt-in switch.

Mind you, the defederation clause and the entire feature request came from someone in the firm belief that the Fediverse is Mastodon, only Mastodon and nothing but Mastodon. Just like about every other Mastodon user out there. So it was only targetted at rogue Mastodon instances with hacked source code.

In reality, however, it would require entire non-Mastodon Fediverse projects to be Fediblocked because they can quote-post without respecting Mastodon's quote-post opt-in switch.

All instances of Pleroma, of Akkoma, of Misskey, of Firefish, of Iceshrimp including Iceshrimp.NET, of Sharkey, of Catodon, of Friendica, of Hubzilla, of (streams) and so forth would have to be Fediblocked because they can quote-post without respecting Mastodon's quote-post opt-in switch. Every last one of them.

Mastodon's quote-post feature will either cause a rift through the Fediverse if this rule is put into action or even more people to shit bricks in terror and escape to Bluesky if it isn't.

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