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@neil I like a lot of the words/ideas there, but couldn't understand with a few minutes browsing what the "Distributed Ledger/Blockchain tech" bit means and why it's needed, in general I'm very skeptical of those things, so need a bit more convincing on them. I guess it's buried in the longer manifesto somewhere. http://disco.coop/manifesto/

Did you understand anything about that?

@nicksellen @neil
I've read the manifesto and can help. Chapter 2 p. 21:
"As we’ve hinted, DisCOs or Distributed Cooperative Organizations are our way of rescuing the baby from the DAO bathwater. If DAOs have arguably been individualistic, techno-deterministic and male dominated (a persistent complaint against the tech world), the Distributed Cooperative Organization proposes corrective measures by prioritizing *mutual support*, *cooperativism* and *care work among people*.

@nicksellen @neil
p. 26
"... further down the speculative rabbit hole of dystopian machine-porn, we could encounter this: a *self-sufficient* artificial intelligence running *autonomously* on a *decentralized* system and programmed to advance certain values and interests, which would be virtually impossible for outsiders to hold accountable.

"On the other hand, we can start creating organizations which are both distributed and cooperative in nature."

@nicksellen @neil
Chap 5 p 50
"The International Cooperative Alliance’s sixth cooperative principle is “Cooperation among Co-ops.” While this ideal is honoured by some cooperatives and ignored by others, there are no simple plug-and-play mechanisms that assure that cooperation will concretely materialise. This is where the alleged value disruption promised by blockchain proponents can take a more associationist turn." ...

@nicksellen @neil
..."Instead of helping those with the most computing power become decentralized capitalists, DisCO’s cultural and structural frameworks can help solidarity movements learn to cooperate at the large scale while maintaining small-group trusted dynamics. What we are describing here is a continuum from trustless as the default norm at the large scale to trustworthy as highly feasible at the small."

@nicksellen @neil
p 53 "Earlier we mentioned the fluid dialectic between culture and structure that defines all commons. If a DisCO’s care orientation is an example of the former, how can we encode this into technological and legal structures to ensure that the culture thrives?
What we propose for the information and value tracking in a DisCO is a platform that acts as a shared information repository for the cooperative, which we’ll call a “community algorithmic trust” (CAT)."

@nicksellen @neil
p 54 "The CAT platform is where members can input and review information about work done in the cooperative, including managing work flow; updating team documentation (...); accounting for their pro-bono, livelihood + care work credits for work performed; creating client invoices and tracking payments; and most importantly, looking at visualizations drawn from the data for these metrics, which show the health of the collective displayed on each member’s individual dashboard."

@ckohtala @nicksellen

I'm pretty clueless with regards to the workings of distributed ledgers (or coop governance for that matter!) so can't speak to the innards of its functioning here or why it's needed.

but this resonates from what @ckohtala picked out

"DisCOs ... are our way of rescuing the baby from the DAO bathwater."

"prioritizing *mutual support*, *cooperativism* and *care work among people*"

@ckohtala @nicksellen

But definitely saw the blockchain overhype result in plenty anti-hype, maybe not all legit. If distributed ledgers w/o the bullshit can genuinely help solidarity economics function, then it should be explored for sure.

I guess the question is do you need distributed ledgers at all for any of this? That's where I don't know enough. But I like that this is based on genuine working example of Guerrilla Translation coop, and the people involved seem like good people.

@neil @ckohtala @nicksellen

Next year, some of us will try creating distributed ledgers with ActivityPubs. We think it is possible, altho are not sure we have the right skillz to do it. Among the gang, though, we will have prior experience both with Ethereum (blockchain) and Holochain. We think the upcoming Ocaps will be part of the mix, so thanks @cwebber

The AP distributed ledgers will not work for a global digital currency, though. Just normal goods and services.

@ckohtala @neil I really like the general stuff I read on http://disco.coop/about/ though - I am hoping for an organizational model that I can show to other people I work in projects with (who are less interested in this stuff as a topic on it's own) and say "hey, can we be one of these?".

I think I kind of want the DisCO model, but without the Distributed Ledger bit, but I think that is a main bit of the concept!

@nicksellen @neil
how about if the DLT part is more to help groups connect in larger networks.
if your scale is small (embedding trust implicitly) then the distributed ledge bit is not needed?

@ckohtala @neil exactly to me the trust comes from other sources (e.g. in person), and I like working/being in high trust environments.

Can I opt of the Distributed Ledger bit and it still makes sense?

If you're interested, I could explain exactly what all these contexts actually are... it's not an abstract question to me.

.. I think I should actually read the whole manifesto too

@nicksellen @neil
to me it makes perfect sense (to opt out). the key is to be transparent about any infrastructure you set up - what *values* it represents and what it makes visible and invisible. that is how I interpret it. what in the organizational structure is decentralized or distributed, how, why - and how this is visible in (designed into) the org infra. how are principles of feminist economics designed in. what is the value for actors. etc.

@nicksellen @neil
the lead-in for the manifesto is here
http://disco.coop/2019/08/last-night-a-distributed-cooperative-organization-saved-my-life-a-brief-introduction-to-discos/

I took the time to read the whole thing and explore some of the (many) links because I found it so amazingly informative, aligning with my worldview and well-written