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What do you understand by the word 'consensus' in normal everyday usage?
@dajb The majority agree, and anyone who doesn't is prepared to go along with that decision (i.e. they're not going to block or veto it).
Consensus != Unanimity
@pwaring You see, that's what I'd call consent. Interesting.
@dajb @pwaring Consent means approval or agreement (in a group context). So I agree, you could happily use consent in the sense of the committee consent (majority) to the proposal. However, consent could also be the result of a minority vote (e.g. with enough abstentions).
Consensus, on the other hand, means a general accord. Coming from consentire (to feel together). If we 'feel' something as a group, or have an accord, it necessarily implies a majority.
@dajb Depends on the context, like about half of English words, smh.
@dajb participants came up with a collective position that everyone could sign up to. It possibly didn't 100% coincide with any individual's opinion on the matter.
@dajb
An overwhelming majority where any dissent cannot be suitably justified.
E.g. the scientific community has a consensus that man made climate change is happening. Despite there being some dissenters.
@basil Interesting, especially in terms of your use of the word 'dissent'.
Seems like there's no consensus on 'consensus'.
@dajb I especially like that the turn of phrase "a growing consensus" injects even more chaos into the mix.
@dajb also, I find it interesting when there is a false consensus (I don't know what else to call it).
Where the consensus is a mile wide and an inch deep.
E.g.
The software industry consensus that agile software development is the best way to run software projects and teams.
But there's no genuine consensus on what agile software development is.
@dajb I think consensus means different things in different contexts. In a policy context I think of consensus as unanimity reached through compromise (ex. The weakened consensus statement on Ukraine from the G20)
In other contexts “consensus” has the sense of “an belief shared by the vast majority of a group of experts”
@dajb Interesting question. I’ve been part of a couple of different collectively organised group based on consensus decision-making — one artistic and one political. And I would contend that consensus means that everyone has to agree in order for the group to move forward, and disagreements must be resolved. In fact, exposing disagreements and discussing them is often a prerequisite for true consensus.
In my experience it requires a high-functioning group with a strong basis of unity bringing them together.
@fgraver Yes, I think the further you go left in politics the more consensus means consent
@dajb That may well be true! Leftist politics do tend to prioritize solidarity over individuality…
But I would also argue there’s a difference between consent and agreement. Consent implies the possibility of masking disagreement in order to move on — I’d say that’s antithetical to true consensus.
@fgraver Hmmm... sounds like our definitions are at odds, as I'd use the Sociocratic approach of consent being alignment.
Whereas my understanding of consensus in the sense of 'majority agreement' means several people are pissed off.
@dajb It seems like our definitions are not only at odds, but diametrically opposed… :D
One of the groups I worked with was strongly based on the principles of constructive criticism as outlined in Gracie Lyons’ book (https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/ncm-3/constructive-criticism.html) We very very clear that consensus was what happened after all disagreements had been worked through, and no one had any reason to stay pissed off.
@dajb (If you look past the very dated references to Mao and Marxist-Leninism, there’s a lot of good, practical advice there on how to build a consensus-based group)
@fgraver Cheers! It's helpful for my practice, though, because now I'm going to start using something like 'majority vote' and 'unanimous decision' for clarity.
@dajb Glad it’s helpful!
(And I’m very pleased to discuss these things; the opportunities for political discussions of this nature are few and far between in my daily professional life…)
@dajb curious whether the 43% of people who voted “majority agree” think this poll has achieved consensus.
@dphiffer indeed
@dajb @dphiffer And in this thread as well I'd like to draw attention to the ISO definition of consensus, which to my mind is not at all bad: Look also at the ISO definition of consensus. https://www.iso.org/glossary.html
@asimong @dphiffer It's a bit vague for my liking. What does 'general agreement' mean? What about 'sustained'? Who decides what's 'important'?
"The goal of any technical committee: general agreement where there is no sustained opposition to substantial issues by any important part of the concerned interests, in a process that seeks to take into account the views of all parties concerned"