social.coop is one of the many independent Mastodon servers you can use to participate in the fediverse.
A Fediverse instance for people interested in cooperative and collective projects. If you are interested in joining our community, please apply at https://join.social.coop/registration-form.html.

Administered by:

Server stats:

504
active users

@ntnsndr @camerontw
Well, that's news! Evgeny hadn't notified me that the work was now published. So *I* will be interested to hear my critical voice too 😳

I couldn't tell what way he was gonna go in the final cut. Myself I feel that VSM is just a geek fetish, in the post Allende context. Harder to say what it was as part of the Chilean anti imperialist struggle, in Cybersyn. But scientism is always risky, cybernetic scientism insidiously so. As a class politics, it was compromised in Chile.

@ntnsndr @camerontw @bhaugen
I find audio format a pain - audio & video both seem opaque, compared with the transparency (scannability) of text. I don't believe developments in so-called AI will improve things. Give me txt any day - except of course, it can make all the difference to hear the actual voice, or see the actual setting.

Anyway, all my files related to this Morozov/Beer project are here:
owncube.cloud/index.php/s/Yjse

Audio, some transcripts, some email exchange.
1of?

OwnCubestafford beer VSM 70s OR interviewOwnCube - Open Source Hosting since 2012
bhaugen

@mike_hales thanks for all the text, I'll respond to some of your toots tonight and may expand a bit tomorrow.

@mike_hales I re-skimmed some of the Cybersyn material and would like to look next at your criticisms. Have you put them into one or a few places that I could read? I have owncube.cloud/index.php/s/Yjse but it would help to know where to focus.

I understand the class criticism, and agree that the "model of the brain" is not a good model for human social-economic organization.

OwnCubestafford beer VSM 70s OR interviewOwnCube - Open Source Hosting since 2012

@mike_hales if no pointers in the next hour, I'll start wading into your collection of files after lunch.

@bhaugen
I don't really have a perspective on Cybersyn the supply chain system project, except from reading the Medina book. The perspective I have (had in the 70s) is of Beer the cybernetician-modeller and leader in the OR and management consulting field, including VSM, and his methodological focus on computational and statistical processes vs social dialogue and organisation .

Sorry, no chunks of cybersyn 🙁 wisdom

@mike_hales that's ok.

Maybe we could have an interesting discussion if we focus on something that we might both want to do that might overlap some with, or glance off of, Cybersym.

Or maybe Cybersyn is not worth discussing anymore...

In my next toot, I'll suggest a somewhat related problem that we might have some fun with. Or not.

@mike_hales
@lynnfoster and I are talking with some people who call themselves the Driftless Bioregional Foundation.

The en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driftles is a bioregion that is increasingly becoming conscious of itself from the viewpoint of social-economic-ecological governance beyond the official US state and county governmental institutions.

Would you be interested in discussion how such a region might organize and govern itself?

I'm sure similar bioregions exist in other places.

en.wikipedia.orgDriftless Area - Wikipedia

@bhaugen @mike_hales @lynnfoster yes, i am very interested in such a discussion. (and thanks for posting)

@band @mike_hales @lynnfoster
I just added you to the distribution list for future messages in related threads. Will do the same for other volunteers.

@bhaugen @band @lynnfoster
Thanks. Not sure I have the headspace for the specifics of such a discussion (I'm switching focus somewhat, fresh fish to fry). But try me. It's interesting, of course.

@bhaugen thx for the quick follow-up. can you send me the original toot? there was something about the wording there that drew me in, and now i cannot find it. (we hates computers)

@band altho I should warn you that I startted this thread to discuss with @mike_hales and if he is not interested, it may not go anywhere.

@lynnfoster

@bhaugen @band @lynnfoster
OK I.ll try not to flunk it! I am a bit preoccupied though. Hi Bill 😉

@mike_hales I'm not in any hurry with this topic. I started by responding to you and then thought maybe I could take it into another dimension.

Do you think you might have time and interest for such a discussion at some more relaxed time, and could you ping me whenever? Or do you think this whole topic is not so compelling for you?

Either way is ok with me.

(I assume Bill is
@band ? Do you two know each other?)
@lynnfoster

@bhaugen @band @lynnfoster
Make a start on the topic, see how it grabs? But I.m not going to get significantly more headspace in general, over coming months.

Last time bill and I were in the same space was about '94 😳 The space was in Norway, being held by the WPT group at PARC . happy days.

@bhaugen
Same WPT different period. I was out of the field (CSCW, participatory design) by then, sadly (Bill was there, I see. Great participants :) But I see a whole bunch of friends in the photos including Oslo folks. In the earlier 90s, the formation was tagged 'Oksnøen symposium'. The only search hit on this tag is this paper from the 96 symposium
hannemyr.com/en/oks96.html
My own Oksnoen papers are here, including 93 (not 94 as earlier stated) & 96:
owncube.cloud/index.php/s/6WPk
@band @lynnfoster

hannemyr.comHannemyr.com: Images of TechnologyThis essay examines the starkly conflicting images of technology from ancient times up to the present day.

@bhaugen @mike_hales @lynnfoster i think the event had this title "Fourth Annual Symposium on Work and Practice and the Design of Computing Systems, Oksnøen, Norway, May 1994"

@mike_hales
< Make a start on the topic, see how it grabs?

Ok. Below
@band @lynnfoster

I'll start with an algorithm. This is the appropriate algorithm for production planning in either capitalist supply chains or socialist organizations covering some territory:
mikorizal.org/dependent_demand

Ignore the "all rights reserved". That was a template statement from hillside.net/plop/plop97/ where that paper was first presented.

More in next toot....

@mike_hales @band @lynnfoster

The Dependent Demand algorithm depends on knowing how much of what you want to produce.

Lynn;s parents were both Institutional Economists en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut

Her mother lived to age 101. I had chance to talk to her a lot, She said the purpose of an economic system is not money, it's provisioning: provisioning human and ecological needs.

So the algorithm should b e based on needs, not money. But that would require some system changes....

en.wikipedia.orgInstitutional economics - Wikipedia

Dependent demand continued again:

In a corporation, the dependent demands are usually some combination of known demands and forecasts.

In a socialist economy, they might be based on last year's consumption plus estimates of needs from various community organizations.

@mike_hales @band @lynnfoster

@bhaugen
Having trouble with the download
mikorizal.org/dependent_demand
Laptop browser says it's risky (your mikorizal site?) and when I say it's ok, it downloads a zeroKB file.
If you could make the download work better that would be cool?
1of2
@band @lynnfoster

@bhaugen 2of2
My phone is more at home with it.

From my phone I see it's a pattern, generated during the glory days of plop. OK, that's interesting 🙂 I haven't had opportunity to study it yet, or port the pdf to a more useful device.

D'you have other associated patterns, from the same era? Patterns are good in relationship 😉
@band @lynnfoster

@mike_hales were you able to download the pattern? Otherwise you can also get it from Plop: hillside.net/plop/plop97/Proce

@band @lynnfoster

@mike_hales
> D'you have other associated patterns, from the same era?

That's the only thing we wrote up in pattern format, because I was going to the PloP conference.

That algorithm got implemented in several generations of software mikorizal.org/software.html and which were used by several networks mikorizal.org/groups.html and evolved into valueflo.ws/

@band @lynnfoster

mikorizal.orgMikorizal Software

@mike_hales for curiosity, what browser were you getting those error messages from?
@band @lynnfoster

Dependent demand algorithm with a flip:
the paper I cited assumed that a supply chain had a head, which would know the whole recursive model for fulfilling all the needs in the chain.

We're working on a new version that will be decentralized, where nodes in the network can send requests to other nodes for inputs to their processes and then offer outputs to other nodes.

@mike_hales @band @lynnfoster

More about the Dependent demand algorithm with a flip:

It's not intended for price negotiation, altho it could be used for that. It's intended for the earl. It's intended for the early stages of organizing a chain or a network, or introducing new chain partners. Or for allowing a lot of flexibility in a chain. And of course the chain could be run that way all the time.

We're developing the decentralized chain software now, in a couple of different stacks.

@mike_hales @band @lynnfoster

@bhaugen @lynnfoster
This all feels significant and I can see why you'd like to go back to retrieve the early pattern. But..
- I guess I want to see an entire pattern language, as you (maybe?) anticipated back then
- not sure whether valueflo.ws can be read in that pattern language fashion? Seems more like an operational vocabulary (terms, constructs, ontology) than a mapping/design frame for a practice (operations, practices, actions)
1of2
@band

@bhaugen @lynnfoster 2of2
- as a pattern presentation, not sure that this one is totally clear to me - a bit over-long? But an ecology of patterns would make things clearer. A dozen or twenty or so?

Sorry to nitpick, patternwise 🙄 But I realise, the ontological strategy of valueflo.ws (tagging aspects of economic *systems*) isn't making as much sense to me as a pattern language strategy would (these kinds of *practices*, in an ecology of practice).

From *economics*, to *organising*?
@band

@bhaugen @lynnfoster
From (objective) systems, to (subjective) cultural and economic *formations*?
@band

@bhaugen @lynnfoster
> a new version that will be decentralized

Yes. No 'head' in a supply chain, but an ecosystem of mutualised provisioning 🙂

How about a pattern language approach to THAT? Surely this could be a good context to make a *design* pattern language? Of economic organising practice.
@band

@mike_hales
We only write up patterns when we have seen them in real life. So not yet. But
"ecosystem of mutualised provisioning 🙂" is a good name for what might emerge.

@lynnfoster @band

@bhaugen @mike_hales @band @lynnfoster That's what I was waiting to hear in this thread. Thanks, Bob! Extra points if you can build the back side of the circular economy (waste capture/recycling/reuse) into it.😜 Would this be an extension of your value exchange network that you were working on a few years ago (locecon?)?

@steveediger @mike_hales @band @lynnfoster

Here's the latest
newsletter from our regional grain chain: mailchi.mp/49ea063ab69d/the-cr

We helped to organize fifthseasoncoop.com/ with help and money from Organic Valley. We developed their first operational software, but then they were joined by a regional food distributor who had better software that several of the members already used so they switched (with our blessing).

Next I'll respond a bit to Steve

mailchi.mp500: We've Run Into An Issue | Mailchimp

@steveediger
> Extra points if you can build the back side of the circular economy (waste capture/recycling/reuse) into it.😜

We worked on software for reflowproject.eu/ and fab.city/ , both of which use the Valuefliows vocabulary.

We also produce tons of compost, including composting our own shit, thus doing our part to heal the metabolic rift.

continued....

@mike_hales @band @lynnfoster

REFLOWREFLOW – Co-creating circular and regenerative resource flows in citiesREFLOW is a project that seeks to understand and transform urban material flows, co-create and test regenerative solutions at business, governance, and citizen levels to create a resilient circular economy.

@bhaugen @band @lynnfoster

Ok, forking, back to the bioregion topic. For reference, the other fork right now (pattern language, modelling) has got to here social.coop/@bhaugen/110808706

This Driftless bioregion sounds fascinating. Almost magical. Of course, bioregion organising is a whole further field for pattern language :blobhyperthink: Maybe it would be fruitful and cross-fertilising, if we talked organising, bioregion, commons and stewarding for a while, in this parallel fork?

@bhaugen @lynnfoster

What kind of conversations RU in, with whom? What stage of autonomous economic organising are they in? Are they farmers, eaters? Are they coops? How desperate are they subsistence wise, livelihood wise, climate wise?

@band

@band
DM'd me:
> i wonder if you and i have a different view of mutual social networks;-- interdependent commons rather than an outright federation. Are we all yearning for some kind of meta-governance?

For me it's all to be done in commons. And commons-of-commons is obviously 'the killer app'. Commons always interpenetrate. Do they also stack? The dual power traditions - eg Rojava - may have working models.

1of2
@bhaugen @lynnfoster

@band 2of2
Formal federation may or may not be involved (eg coop-to-coop). Commoning as a very 'political' political economy (implications for multistakeholder governance forms, also for values - like the grandchildren's grandchildren, 'contribution economy' basis not property and ownership) is distinct from federation as an organisational strategy?
@bhaugen @lynnfoster

@band 3of2
Federation is an obvious mode of supply chain organisation of course. And culturally favoured by ppl who are into peer-to-peer distributed organisation.
@bhaugen @lynnfoster

@mike_hales @lynnfoster @band
> What kind of conversations RU in, with whom?

Several groups. Immediately, with a group that calls themselves the Driftless Bioregional Foundation, altho they don't have any legal identity as an organization, or any web presence so far other than a Telegram channel.

> What stage of autonomous economic organising are they in?

Just starting,

continued...

@mike_hales @lynnfoster @band

> Are they farmers, eaters?

Both. Also organizers,

> Are they coops?

Some are.

> How desperate are they subsistence wise, livelihood wise, climate wise?

Not desperate yet, but local climate is getting worse. Farmers are finding it hard to grow eg wheat because of fungi.

There's a regional grain chain that I'll find a link to after breakfast.

@mike_hales @lynnfoster @band

Lynn went out to one of our local Amish farm co-ops for breakfast fruit etc so I'll pop another tidbit or two into this thread,

The bioregion has several leading economic organizations. One of them, organicvalley.coop , was here before we got here. nut one of our cooperative housing partners help to develop their dairy supply chain software. It's a hard problem, Milk is perishable. They are so good at it that several other dairy co-ops use their system.

www.organicvalley.coopOrganic Valley | Farmer Owned Since 1988Founded in 1988, Organic Valley is a cooperative of farmers producing award-winning organic milk, cheese, butter, produce, healthy snacks & more.

@bhaugen @mike_hales @lynnfoster @band

hi all
I managed to read all the threads and responses, I think!

I am forking from this post social.coop/@bhaugen/110809199

to sum up, regarding the bioregions and pattern language/ modelling threads, I'm seeing sense-making probing into:

>decentralized [network, a "supply chain" but not a chain], provisioning human and ecological needs ...
(1/3)

@bhaugen @mike_hales @lynnfoster @band

...
>bioregion that is increasingly becoming conscious of itself from the viewpoint of social-economic-ecological governance
>What we have to model is constellations of practices. Practices of economic organising.
>Ppl and objects (material or digital) in mutualised working partnerships.
...
(2/3)

@bhaugen @mike_hales @lynnfoster @band

...
>ecosystems of practices, and patternlike forms in *economic organising practice* (as an in-here, 'inhabited', relational, mutuality-oriented visualisation of relationships and intentions in making-and-doing practice among economic organisers).
(3/3)

from one view, this looks like the doughnut model that tries to reconcile the planetary boundaries with quality of life and human wellbeing - but not to the scale of practices and organizing
(3a)
...

@bhaugen @mike_hales @lynnfoster @band

that zoom-in-zoom-out massive jump in scale and "material" is challenging.
stuff and organizing and practices in emergence. and a lot of other vocabulary that I'm not fluent in :D
there is patterning, modelling, classifying - and then there is mess and dirt and confusion and "local". we need both but do they work at the same time?

btw there is an arena in design research very popular now, more-than-human design, multispecies design, and similar.
(3b)

@ckohtala
>'More than human' design

Yep, I remember. Can you give us a link? One of the HCI or PD conferences last year was on this tack?
@bhaugen @lynnfoster @band

Duke University PressOn Nonscalability: The Living World Is Not Amenable to Precision-Nested ScalesBecause computers zoom across magnifications, it is easy to conclude that both knowledge and things exist by nature in precision-nested scales. The technical term is “scalable,” the ability to expand without distorting the framework. But it takes hard work to make knowledge and things scalable, and this article shows that ignoring nonscalable effects is a bad idea. People stumbled on scalable projects through the same historical contingencies that such projects set out to deny. They cobbled together ways to make things and data self-contained and static, and thus amenable to expansion. In European New World plantations, the natives were wiped out; coerced and alienated plants and workers came to substitute for them. Profits were made because extermination and slavery could be discounted from the books. Such historically indeterminate encounters formed models for later projects of scalability. This essay explores scalability projects from the perspective of an emergent “nonscalability theory” that pays attention to the mounting pile of ruins that scalability leaves behind. The article concludes that, if the world is still diverse and dynamic, it is because scalability never fulfills its own promises.

@mike_hales @bhaugen @lynnfoster this topic is the one that intrigues me the most;-- especially in regard to governance and operations (coop-based? semi-autonomous work groups? ...)

@mike_hales earlier question regarding social practices as distinct from engineering is also important and generative

and regarding Valueflows (i have yet to read the linked items) my questions, now, are more like "What is it for?"

@band
> regarding Valueflows (i have yet to read the linked items) my questions, now, are more like "What is it for?"

Helping to coordinate economic networks and supply chains.

Want more or is that enuf for now?

@mike_hales @lynnfoster