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@natematias@social.coopI think we're seeing a decline in the idea that Code is Law. It was an interesting idea while it lasted, and there are still a *lot* of unaccountable infrastructures that are effectively making & enforcing private legislation. But technology is ultimately managed by people, and those people are subject to laws.
If you want a just society, there's no getting around politics; you need good laws and trustworthy governments to carry them out.
It's also not clear to me in 2024 that anyone can meaningfully defend human rights by defending the maximal discretion of technology makers, if we ever could, given the pretty dismal record they have accumulated on that front.
A common cyberlibertarian ideal is one where technology achieves freedom beyond the reach of governments. There's no better symbol of that notion of independence than launching things into space — a classic scifi trope.
But just as European colonists learned centuries ago, putting things into orbit makes you *more* interdependent, no less. And that means law.
@natematias Yes when I talk about Code 2.0 with my UG students I talk about code as architecture rather than code as law, as that is the conclusion I took from the book and I think also how @tnhh presented it to our summer school students as well, even if that is not what the original book title Code is Law said.
@natematias it is interesting that you tag that as “code is law”! In my reading, Lessig’s formulation acknowledged—even in the heady days of 1998(?)—that “east coast code” and “west coast code” were interdependent. So I associate the phrase with the claim that code is *a* law, not with the claim that code is *the* law.
Maybe I need to put on my housing hat and write “code is (zoning) law”, emphasizing that software code’s legal role is real, but a creature of layered systems?
@natematias couple other observations:
- there’s something good to be written about how Brazil, which has been very receptive to “open”, being so decisively closed here. (John Perry Barlow greatly enjoyed Brazilian culture, but it is his 1990s ur-cyber-text that is really the dying one.)
- I wish I could get my remnant cyberlibertarian friends to grapple with how the legacy of Latin American dictatorship impacts speech law there. You might enjoy this, which is relevant: https://www.liberalcurrents.com/against-the-slave-power-the-fugitive-liberalism-of-frederick-douglass/
@luis_in_brief yeah, this is less a response to Lessig directly as it is a response to how people think and talk about that aspect of Lessig's writing.
Musk's attempt to rebuff Brazilian law because he has satellites is obviously naive—in interesting ways.
And yes to your other points. I too would be very interested to read more of a summary and review about speech law and Latin American political history. It's something I wish I understood more.
@natematias not an expert either—and I suspect that given the regular pendulum of dictatorship <-> democracy in the region, it's likely that the topic simply isn't well-developed (either judicially or academically) in the way Americans expect.
Which might be reason for American civil libertarians, resting comfortably on 250 years of history, to be humble in their assertions of what is Best in places where democracy is more precarious. But uh... that's not what I'm seeing.
@luis_in_brief wouldn't be the first time in respect to Latin American politics, alas.
@natematias @luis_in_brief Riffing beyond code here, the rule of law is a little tenuous in Brazil. The sociological concept called “jeitinho” awards the opportunity to avoid inconvenient laws, and the idea of “Belindia” points out the supposed inadequacy of Brazilian laws to society (having laws like Belgium in a society like India). So, military governments aside, Brazilians' skeptical view of their legal system is well known.
@aarbrk @natematias how do you think that impacts this particular situation? people aren't worried because they'll ignore/work around it, or...?
@luis_in_brief @natematias My read is that people's compliance with any ruling will be only partial. I'd be shocked if many of them were actually fined for using VPNs. It's worth mentioning that Starlink is an important tool in deforestation-based ranching practices. The show must go on.
@aarbrk @natematias "Starlink is an important tool in deforestation-based ranching practices" sigh, because of course it is.
@natematias @luis_in_brief tangential, but i thought this was an interesting perspective - that law may be a legacy system behind managerialism, at least in the UK (X 
sorry) https://x.com/mk270/status/1831279840940413261
