@ntnsndr Tell me about it. Hope one day we'll be able to make progress on things we discussed in early 2017. Democracy without technical education against architectural design are almost anti-ethical to each other. This is nothing new, I think even Tocqueville anticipated it, but the US still keeps trying. #SocialCoop
@ntnsndr If it takes years for people to catch up, eventually you get tired and move on. I keep trying to not move on, but it's kinda disheartening some days whenever you see somebody say "hey, you know what, this thing we didn't discuss properly and didn't take seriously years ago, on hindsight, yes we should fix it".
@mayel @ntnsndr Seeing Loomio-generated notifications and Loomio-hosted text documents in the Mastodon interface would make it less necessary for people to be on top of things when Loomio is not their cup of tea.
I forced myself to use Loomio because it mattered, but I'd rather hang out there very little, and I'm guessing that's part of the reason for low participation.
Others who are more meeting-inclined and accustomed to that sort of debate don't find it nearly as tedious or un-figurable.
I would probably put something together, another service in parallel extracting the necessary data straight from the database to do the necessary transformations both ways. (say, somebody adding a text document from within Mastodon, too)
But that's just technical stuff... the main problem here is not technical, it's political.
@mayel @ntnsndr IF people waited too long to catch up and only used social media in the same way they use Facebook and complain to their sysadmins as if they had the same resources and ethics of Mark Zuckerberg, well, a few years down the road there will be nobody left around to complain to.
There is a cost of opportunity involved, and the people who do the harder part of the work can't absorb all of the cost. There is no way around it, it's a matter of basic economics really.
@ntnsndr @mayel Either people catch up faster, listen, and learn more, or sysadmins and programmers absorb all of the cost. There is no VC to spoonfeed the masses. A functioning democracy implies competence of all participants.
It's very kind and generous of you that you want to do more and help people more out of genuine conviction and commendable ideals.
It would be even better if people could absorb at least part of the cost so that you don't have to.
@h @mayel @ntnsndr
>A functioning democracy implies competence of all participants.
-and that's why the myth of "rugged selfishness" is so dear to the neoliberal elites. As Noam Chomsky put it ("Requiem for the American dream"), the disenfranchisment of the masses is the long term goal of the neoliberal system, either by means of persuasion (the "rugged selfishness" myth) or rendering the people's vote meaningless (see Citizens United v. FEC)
One with a purpose (more often than not) of course.
@samtoland @ntnsndr @mattcropp It's this partition that's driving non-adoption and anti-participation. Most people can't, don't want, and won't participate of most decisions for this reason, no matter how inclusive you want to paint it.
Changes are needed. You can't have a separate network with different conventions for each use case.
We still have time to do something about it. Ignoring the subject and telling ourselves that everything is lovely is not going to fix it.
I'm not sure I agree 100% - but the idea of avoiding barriers for participation and siloing conversations is well made.
(You can engage on Loomio via email/slack, why not Mastodon?...)
@samtoland 1) This is not a problem Eugen has. Mastodon is a general purpose microblogging platform and federated social network. Eugen has nothing to do with the discussion system that social.coop decided to use.
2) This is a problem social.coop has.
3) Loomio is the best tool available, for what it does.
4) We don't have a technical problem, we have a communication problem.