@ckohtala @neil exactly πŸ‘ to me the trust comes from other sources (e.g. in person), and I like working/being in high trust environments.

Can I opt of the Distributed Ledger bit and it still makes sense?

If you're interested, I could explain exactly what all these contexts actually are... it's not an abstract question to me.

.. I think I should actually read the whole manifesto too ⭐

@ckohtala @neil I really like the general stuff I read on disco.coop/about/ though - I am hoping for an organizational model that I can show to other people I work in projects with (who are less interested in this stuff as a topic on it's own) and say "hey, can we be one of these?".

I think I kind of want the DisCO model, but without the Distributed Ledger bit, but I think that is a main bit of the concept!

@ckohtala @neil thanks for extracting those bits! I appreciate it πŸ‘

> β€œcommunity algorithmic trust” (CAT)

can community trust be subject to an algorithm? can we ever record and understand enough information about it to apply algorithmic logic? my feeling is not.

less abstractly, much of my work (or value) will never be recorded anywhere because I don't want to write it all down.

Context for my thinking: social.coop/@nicksellen/102903 - we have our first monthly "payday call" this month.

@neil I like a lot of the words/ideas there, but couldn't understand with a few minutes browsing what the "Distributed Ledger/Blockchain tech" bit means and why it's needed, in general I'm very skeptical of those things, so need a bit more convincing on them. I guess it's buried in the longer manifesto somewhere. disco.coop/manifesto/

Did you understand anything about that?

@kat I love that album :) ... a bit too short though.

I also love Hiroshi Yoshimura - Green for relaxation

invidio.us/watch?v=D7aYjRl_6Zw

... and Brian Eno - Thursday Afternoon

invidio.us/watch?v=TTHF2Dfw1Dg

@mike_hales @dazinism @wu_lee @protean I am potentially interested in doing some of this work for a low "solidarity payment" type of arrangement. I am trying to find a way to get all my income from little arrangements like this, so needs a bit of thinking...

as many of you know, I spent a week at the London XR rebellion, well I have finally written a short article on what I saw, what I feel about it and if XR is even worth it for us in the first place.
cornishrepublican.army/2019/10
boosts very much appreciated

@neil I just put my whole phone away for a similar reason. hoping to leave it in hiding for some days at least, then see how it goes... everything I need is available on the laptop, in a form that encourages more intentional interaction. in theory at least.

@mike @bram Yes, the question of being able to build commons in a capitalist economy is crucial.

To me the battle of free software became irrelevant considered that nowadays:
- capitalism ate free software and rebranded it as opensource, which really is just "free software with free as in free market"
- there's free software everywhere, used to build centralized proprietary services
- everything happens in the cloud, so there are many questions like "how do you effectively trust sysadmins with your data"

@priryo I have no evidence anyone takes in interest in mine ... I've had it 8 years and often leave it unlocked (when touring, in rural locations) ... but it plays on my mind, and I couldn't afford to replace it now if it were stolen.

There are various RFID schemes, that seem to be private companies that co-ordinate with police to provide the readers, also micro dot things (to put on individual components).

I'm thinking to ignore it all again now!

@wu_lee my phone is even constantly telling the cell tower and phone company where I am! that doesn't mean I want my bike to do that as well.

it's the principle of least information, or something like that.

... as for my wallet in particular, I can choose about that particular trade-off. I could travel around the UK totally anonymously, just use cash, no phone, etc...

@wu_lee registering it means the police have access to the database, which means on finding my bike and reading the frame number it can be connected back to me, so not anonymous any more.

I don't think they are likely to do that, and I don't think it would usually matter if they did.

... but I am uncomfortable when I reduce my ability to be anonymous. If I do, I'd like to understand the tradeoffs available.

@wolfi might be nice, but I think it would likely use too much electricity to keep it powered for very long.

@priryo yup, good point. I think I may go for this.

Although I understood for "serious" crime, the frame number might get filed off...

I was thinking to register my precious touring bike in case it ever gets stolen. But then I realised one of the things I love about cycling is the freedom, independence and anonymity.

No "cycling license" needed, no registration required, and it's one of the few remaining ways to travel anonymously.

I'm conflicted now. Thoughts?

@neil I attempted something which sounds similar, using a git repo on GitHub (github.com/nicksellen/ponderin) it's not especially up to date or active, but I like the idea still.

I made it deliberately rough so didn't have to spend much time writing stuff. Trying to keep the barrier to writing low.

Part of why we say "solidarity not charity" is because the way charity is typically presented gives moral superiority to the givers - and often, moral inferiority to the receivers (or sometimes "takers," if they decide to be particularly transparent about it)

Truisms like "it is better to give than to receive" implicitly contain "it is wrong to receive help." It's wrong to ask for the support you need, to want it, even to accept it when offered. Panhandling, for instance, is often portrayed not just as shameful, but immoral - even greedy

Solidarity, and especially mutual aid, are meant to reject that dichotomy. Everyone at Food Not Bombs eats together, volunteers and otherwise, and talks to each other. Our Free Store puts "it's free because it's yours" all over its reading material - it's not a gift, not a blessing, not charity. And that makes *such* a big difference

@bhaugen thanks, I've been aware of some of those, but got a bit overwhelmed when reading more!

I feel quite a strong urge to not track time, in the spirit of moving away from wage labour, and also trying to not introduce a hard line between volunteers and paid workers.

Within a trusted group, minimising numerical calculation of value seems a good idea to me.

@adrianheine is there a discussion place too? (For example if somebody feels somebody else is paying too much/little, or other concerns). Sounds in the spirit of what I'm thinking though.

Wondering what the equivalent would be when it's for income, not rent. The monthly income is meaningless as currently the money is just a funding lump sum.

I like the "traffic light" levels though. Maybe gesture/token, subsistence, and comfort needs.

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