@sir @Tommy @cloudron sorry but I'm not going to stop sharing the love. @cloudron makes loads of great apps (including @Mastodon itself, and other apps like @pixelfed ) really easy and accessible. What's not to like? So here's that code again: 5adcafc820c53c3d 😘

@jdaviescoates was this part of a thread? I couldn't see what it was in response to.

To me, Cloudron smells of digital enclosure of the open source commons, no?

@nicksellen it was in response to being rudely ordered not to share my Cloudron referral code (5adcafc820c53c3d)! But no, it doesn't smell like that to me AT ALL. @cloudron is the best thing since sliced bread. Its MASSIVELY empowered me, allowing me to use (& ) open apps. It used to be fully , now backend is, frontend isn't, but is still all coded in the open & all app packages MIT + the goal (& practice) is to support upstream projects. It. Totally. Rocks.

@jdaviescoates of the 3 of the app packages I randomly picked, 2 had no license, and 1 was GPL.

I don't doubt it's empowered you, but that empowerment can be taken away at will. That's not the kind of empowerment I'm in it for.

Even if it was open source, it still would not provide community ownership or governance.

I get the features are appealing to you and I wouldn't tell you not to use it or share code, but just adding a touch of caution to your overwhelming enthusiasm!

@nicksellen sure, I'd like *everything* to be fully open source and co-operatively owned and governed too.

But @cloudron finally makes it feasible for MANY more people to reduce their dependence on tech giants in a way that nothing else that currently exists does.

And such extremely widespread dependence is many orders of magnitude worse than anything that could happen using Cloudron, no?

Don't let perfection be the enemy of the good.

@jdaviescoates if you communicated that you'd like it to be open source and community governed, and it's not perfect, but it's useful for now, and perhaps pointed out yunohost and sandstorm as other contenders in this field, that would totally mitigate my feelings that you are just a little too enthusiastic about it :)

Your enthusiasm could even look like you are just in it for the referral code bonus, but I don't think you are (I got checked for my enthusiasm of transferwise some time back)

@nicksellen I also use TransferWise, it's great, isn't it? (but MUCH further away from our shared ideals than Cloudron).

I used to use Sandstorm (both hosted & self hosted) and know of Yunohost etc.

But frankly none of them come close to Cloudron (lots of up to date well maintained apps that Just Work, amazing support, very active development)

People need to lighten up, stop assuming humans primarily act from self-interest (they don't) & generally Assume Good Faith and First Trust a LOT more.

@jdaviescoates this thread started because you didn't like people telling you what you should do, I also don't like that.

I don't need to lighten up, it's an important and interesting topic for me. I even used exclamation marks and smileys ;)

I think "assume good faith" is past its sell by date, as it focuses on the immediate intention of the people, not the systemic factors at play.

Remember "don't be evil"?

We should be wiser by now! Intentions should be encoded and enforceable.

@nicksellen could you elaborate on what you mean by "Intentions should be encoded and enforceable"? :)

@jdaviescoates actually I realise now that I think I misunderstand the target of your comment.

I was referring to whether we should trust the good intent of cloudron given its not open source, and I now think you were referring to whatever was said that triggered the whole thread.

I still don't see any of the original messages from them, so that confused me.

@nicksellen I also wasn't saying that we should assume good faith of corporations, but in the first instance assume good faith of other people (in contrast to people saying I was promoting Cloudron for self interest, which simply isn't true)

@jdaviescoates yes I get that now. I find your promotion of cloudron a bit excessively enthusiastic as I said. But more benign than self-interested.

Possibly nudging towards naive though if it does represent digital enclosure of the commons (as I suspect).

I would be interested to hear an analysis of it from a commons theory perspective.

@nicksellen I'm so enthusiastic simply because my experience of using it has been so positive and empowering. I've always wanted to be able to do what Cloudron enables me to do and now I can. Easily. Everything Just Works, and both the quality of support and the speed of development (in response to user needs) are amazing. Especially considering it's just two people who've bootstrapped it all, haven't taken any investment and have no intention to do so.

@nicksellen Why do you suspect it is an enclosure of the commons? Lots of their code is open source, the developers contribute upstream, and to do be able to do so more is one of their primary aims. Their users also contribute upstream by reporting (and working on) upstream bugs etc too.


@jdaviescoates the open source products are a commons. But I understand cloudron to be private/proprietary.

It's different to a physical commons resource, as digital commons remain available even if someone wraps them in a non-commons layer.

Anything that takes open source but manages access through a non open source gateway smells fishy to me.

I'm not in my best thinking state, but I imagine you can get some sense of what I'm getting at?

I'm sure many people thought about this already.

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