Gentle reminder that being "self-sufficient" and a "self-starter," and pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, and even just living on your own and expected to be able to do everything for yourself, is actually a highly unnatural state of affairs for human beings which only became the norm in a small number of countries less than a century ago.
@muninn psychologists have also identified that this attitude has had a fundamental impact on the mental health of every subsequent generation to the point where it can basically be considered a scar on our collective psyche
@drifting_in_circles innnteresting, do you have a source? not asking in a snarky way, asking cause I wanna read it.
@drifting_in_circles @muninn That's a pretty strong normative statement. How would we differentiate that from the case where we have parallel evolving temperaments? Consider the russian experiments on the heritability of temperament, for example, and how it demonstrated a strong (epi-)genetic component to temperament.
I realise that you're not saying this, but I could easily turn the position to which you refer to say that antisocial introversion is a mental disease, rather than a preference.
@muninn being this isolated is *definitely* not the norm. Humans are group animals. We start acting really fucking weird when we're alone for long periods of time.
@muninn It's a modern construct that we just take for granted?
@Snorlaxation Yes, I think so. I don't have sources up my sleeve on this (call it the sum of so much reading I can't remember the titles of other than #BowlingAlone) but human beings were never this isolated nor expected to be so non-interdependent until very recently, and it's *really bad* for some of us.
Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is also an oxymoron that lots of people fail to recognize as being impossible.
And besides, that was never what happened.
What happened was that the society around us grew handholds.
@muninn this is so important for everyone to realise
On the other hand, one could observe that it became a natural reaction to increasing friction between individuals and increasingly overbearing authority structures. In this day and age of the AI-powered panopticon, it's unsurprising that the urge is stronger than ever among people who were ever so inclined.
@muninn To develop this thought a bit:
Just as we have a multidimensional spectrum of sexuality, we have a multidimensional spectrum of sociability. The dominant analysis, that integrated social activity is the norm, the default and an objective good, is a parallel to the idea that vanilla monogamous heterosexuality is.
They're both cases of one-size-fits-all thinking, really.
@jankoekepan I'm speaking about recently-installed expectations in certain societies that everyone should be able to fend for themselves in activities of daily living with no dependence on others beyond participation in a market economy. The vast majority of the human race did not live like this for the vast majority of history, yet now that this model is dominant, the people for whom it doesn't work are considered to have a problem on an essential level. I call bullshit.
@muninn I see room for both approaches, rooted in human variation.
@muninn Mind you, the most enduring system over thousands of years of recorded history has been various variations on the theme of feudalism, and I'm not entirely convinced that that would be an unmitigated improvement.
@muninn also feels like a nice way to keep entrepreneurial types from seeking support.
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