@GuerillaOntologist You explain hierarchy in terms of sociopaths, but this fact doesn't help you explain how it's possible to have a non-hierarchical society despite that it must contain sociopaths.

@GuerillaOntologist Sunday morning armchair critique!

I think it undermines your goal to use the word "dominate" rather than "organize". Society is not dominated by hierarchy, as much as we find the metaphor fitting. It's organized hierarchically. If you adopt this terminology, then you need not assert that non-hierarchy instead must dominate society. Domination is the enemy, right?

@bhaugen @mayel Although part of the idea is that the ISP is also a means of educating the community about telecom, so that they are in a position to manage it and make critical decisions. It's a chicken-and-egg problem. I'm guessing I have to convince the community that they need an ISP that they control.

@bhaugen @mayel It hasn't been implemented. I've been sitting on the idea for almost a year. I suspect it would be hard to do it in my area, which is not exactly a hotbed of cooperativism or DIY technology. But even before that, I want to get a working prototype, and I'm struggling to find good fabrication methods.

@bhaugen @mayel FWIW my positions on certain topics in the article are not really fixed; I was just exploring the arguments. I do steadily think that communities need to be able to control decisions about matters that directly affect them.

@bhaugen @mayel This sounds pretty similar to what I'd like to see happen in my area regarding ISPs. Could an ISP be community assistance?

I began writing a proposal about it a while ago. it's not very strong; I'd love to get some feedback on it. Obviously I'd change terminology, but I'd like to improve the core argument.

kdsch.org/article/isp-coop

The RONJA project makes the technology part pretty accessible. Most FSO technology is extremely expensive and industrial.

@neil Your comment reminds me of some ISPs in Europe that use RONJA[1] (or some kind of free-space optical transmission) as their main infrastructure.

[1]: ronja.twibright.com/about.php

Fog is the main thing that causes beam losses.

@edsu I see. Is it going to be recorded? (Not by the NSA, that is?)

Watching citizenfour isn't exactly the best way to have a relaxing Sunday.

@neil You'd have to stretch the meaning of "university" pretty far to give it those adjectives. A university can't be distributed because, apparently, all of the knowledge is concentrated in professors. That's why "learning environments" exist.

A distributed university would not have dedicated environments, and thus not have knowledge "concentrated" in a small number of people. Is this the idea?

The internet is a contender, but lacks a pervasive norm of inquiry.

@Matt_Noyes The ICA principles are about structure, not outcomes. So, yes, they won't necessarily inspire someone to cooperation if they can't see that cooperation can lead to liberation, etc.

As a wanna-be analyst, I cringe to think of someone confusing structural properties with the effects of those properties in a certain situation; this also occurs in cult-like thinking. Rather than forget the principles, it seems better to augment them with possible uses and outcomes.

@GuerillaOntologist @richdecibels The emphasis on care labor makes a lot of sense. And not only intuitively. I think care might be one of the most fundamental experiences informing the values of cooperatives. What we experience informs our unconscious thoughts. Thus to shape these thoughts requires a new experience.

@jjg Yes! Maybe if Go takes off in embedded systems we can get smaller binaries. And my job can get better, and I won't have to write C for legacy enterprise [mumbles].

It's such a good tool for doing lots of shit at one time. Not really the systems programming language it was initially claimed to be. But I keep thinking of the Go runtime codebase; it's certainly possible to write low-level code.

@neil It's true that Chomsky and neoclassical economics have a similar view of human reason, so with respect to that, his argument is strong. However, that view of reason is being undermined by current cognitive science research, which I believe gives a better explanation of advertising. As for a predictive economic theory that doesn't make needless assumptions about human reason, see Anwar Shaikh.

@michaelafisher they are definitely interested in paying fair prices to farmers that make a good product.

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social.coop

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