I wonder what you would need to tweak to make something other than Facebook the thing that bars and restaurants put their menus and opening hours on.

There are lots of small places where the link is a Facebook page with just a menu and maybe some posts if the owners are particularly tech-savvy



breaking into the mainstream is harder than it seems 😕

@AbbieNormal it's true, but this is basically a bad way to use Facebook, on top of Facebook itself being bad for its users. Bars and restaurants are two of the few things where I actually do want to see promotional stuff, and FB will bury that unless you pay them extra, which I guess these small businesses aren't.


he thing is this

people use facebook for personal leisure

so when they do things for the restaurant they manage, familiarity kicks in

Google offers to build a simple promotional page and yet that's used poorly and timidly (around here)

because people don't hang on google in their personal time


this is one of the best and yet it's so timid

In my phone I have better pictures of the place

Also they offer several kind of floures, can you guess that from their page ?



if these people were on the fediverse rather than on facebook, the fediverse should offer a type used for representing businesses, like the google business site

@AbbieNormal specifically an activitypub thing for that kind of establishment would make sense. A Foodiverse with special provisions for menus opening times. Don't make people download your pdf menu from FB


I think @pukkamustard 's OpenEngiadina is about something similar

Also, I think @jonny could be interested in this discussion

@AbbieNormal @derwinmcgeary @pukkamustard
SEO SEO SEO. the main thing a restaurant wants is for you to Google them and for them to be the thing you find. anything you make has to be SEO hyperoptimized first, have a ux >= easy than Facebook which has like global capital levels of ux budget. third is balancing "user concern" like why people go to Yelp because they feel like they have some semblance of control/impartial review system. so AP is the perfect thing that tips the scales there

@AbbieNormal @derwinmcgeary @pukkamustard
it's also a beautiful onramp to teaching people what SEO IS - html meta and target text. only a FOSS SEO framework could do that, it makes you not have a product. that's an onramp to what the web is. and so on

@AbbieNormal @derwinmcgeary @pukkamustard there are also like a billion "nice to haves" that would make a real difference that you only get by actively collaborating with restaurant/bar ppl, and I can only think of a few of bc I've asked a bunch of them over the years what they'd want from the web but haven't worked w them.
- categories of items that share a price
- categories of items that share price with a multiplier for size
- modifiers for items
- linking modifiers with inventory


@AbbieNormal @derwinmcgeary @pukkamustard
- time of day (eg. lunch/dinner menus) item adjustments by order frequency
- time of day price adjustments by order frequency
- easy for the people at the register to use
- easy to deploy to franchises
- easy to have a synchronized display across kitchen, front of house, etc.
- recommendations of related items, chained items (sides and drinks)
- remember customer's previous order
- integration with delivery service
- order status tracking

@AbbieNormal @derwinmcgeary @pukkamustard
- hours adjustable on the fly
- hours integrated via metadata with search engines
- specials on the homepage
- bidirectional forumlike customer <-> restaurant communication, people like to tweet @ things, even if we don't like to admit it, people like to read Yelp reviews.
and so on

@AbbieNormal @derwinmcgeary @pukkamustard
where I think free tech people fuck up approaching these problems is either by not working with the people involved or by over optimizing for the people involved and just imagining it as a "restaurant platform." another axis of fucking up is catering too hard to "developers" or too hard to "users." instead I think we need to start thinking about general purpose frameworks for representing structured data continuous across levels of use

@AbbieNormal @derwinmcgeary @pukkamustard
taking the groupware idea seriously, that there are multiple scales of social/technological organization that happen simultaneously, and so we need to make communication systems that twin with technical systems that have information available for multiple scales and audiences of entry. practically speaking I feel like this is what the Solid folks were talking about but I just dk where that went mixed with smalltech and also wiki culture

@AbbieNormal @derwinmcgeary @pukkamustard
but I think about this exact thing a lot, why does the internet really suck for arguably the easiest * most numerous group to serve: ppl who want to host some static information that's easy to browse and update

@jonny @AbbieNormal @pukkamustard so where does it fit in - we have AP and software that works with it. Work really hard on opening times because time and calendar stuff is always a nightmare, try and put together a menu data structure that would work for foofy tasting menu places but also five guys build a burger stuff. Special code for dietary stuff and allergies, preferably separate because that matters to the kitchen

@jonny @AbbieNormal @pukkamustard or, I guess to look at your general "not just restaurants", preferences and requirements which aren't necessarily limited to food

@AbbieNormal @pukkamustard
ya like work with a broad range of people and look for commonalities. like you have notion of "item" that you could use AP's linked data support for making a structured schema to represent. then you have different attributes of item, that again taking advantage of the typing-ish nature of LD you can make different interfaces for.

@derwinmcgeary @AbbieNormal @pukkamustard
none of these restaurant problems are unique, but a restauranteur doesn't want to start with learning a whole abstract framework for data representation: they want restaurant tool. so you make a common framework repackagable. ok great that's platforms again, but you give the notion of plugins, like they can mold the thing to do what they want. don't treat it like code only, build a communication system into it

@derwinmcgeary @AbbieNormal @pukkamustard
make it easy for people to do what they always do when they can: share the stuff they make. so I figure out how to trick my restaurant website thing into filling this need I have. I have a way of sharing this and for people to find it. that's part of using the thing. you don't need permission, it's not a support line, that's where the wiki world really teaches us how to make sustainable digital ideas

@derwinmcgeary @AbbieNormal @pukkamustard
and so on and so forth AP is a good bridge for making interfaces across shared data representations buts that's mostly not realized because we haven't really approached the LD part of it seriously, like making interface/representational code that is built on the level of the *post* rather than the project/medium. that's where the federational nature of AP really fails imo, but p2p AP has always been "in the works" bc we all want it

@jonny @derwinmcgeary @pukkamustard

I only understood about 50% of what you wrote

Have you ever thought of posting a proper blog post about this ?

@jonny @derwinmcgeary @pukkamustard

about OpenEngiadina, don't be misled by heir usage of xmpp instead of AP

They dislike json but the vocabulary they use in their xml is common with AP

@derwinmcgeary @pukkamustard
I have seen and love the spirit of experimentation and multiple lineages it follows!

@derwinmcgeary @pukkamustard
working on a paper for about a year now!!! will be experimenting with open authorship in the spirit of it, and would love to have collective input from you and y'all that think in this vein. it's late here so being v blippy.

@jonny @AbbieNormal @pukkamustard might be nice to try the food idea as a reasonably complex test case for a more general activities framework. Plenty of real-worldy "what abouts" there

@AbbieNormal @pukkamustard
I am like losing it because I have said this often and am glad to find someone who agrees!!!!!!! I have no special romanticism for restauranteurs but I am frequently curious what keeps them from having a website or a way of doing their business online. I think it's an excellent test case in "what do people want from the web? can we give it to them? why not?" if our ideas were so good , they would be able to help a restaurant host a menu.

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