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@xj9 @mayel @cwebber

Alternative truth is necessary even in science, before conjectures are taken seriously by the communities they originate in.
Nothing wrong about alternative truth per se.
Nothing wrong with fiction either.
Nothing wrong with Greek mythology, or with theology.
Nothing wrong with Marvel or DC comics. Nothing wrong with Star Trek or Star Wars.

It's the uses you make with those.

@bob @cwebber @xj9@sunshinegardens.org
Precisely. See above, where I referred to cooperative work for self-sustaining FOSS work.

Meaning cooperative economically-oriented work, as in Co-ops. And a few of them exist, so it's not a novel concept. It just hasn't taken off yet.

Most things haven't taken off before they take off :-)

@mayel @cwebber Wikidata is a good first approach, but insufficient. It's *one* building block of one ontology. One hegemonic ontology, centralised.

@cwebber Also, the "semantic web" is the re-centralised web. Behind closed doors.

A people's distributed web doesn't exist yet. Much less a people's distributed semantic web.

Kind of paradoxical, maybe, that we will need to build better people first, before we can build better AI.

@cwebber By specialists. Please see above spec. *All*.

Not just scientists. Not just fascists. Not just Americans.

I don't want a Sino-Russian empire of the near future more than I want a Western Fascist Alliance.
The only way I can conceive of struggling away post-capitalist hegemony from all of the evil empires is making all ontologies available to all people, globally. Meaning actually all. Not just scientists. Not just Americans. Not just fascists. All, as in, really all.

I said earlier that we need the science, but we need new implementations that account for collaboratively-constructed ontologies.

FOSS exists, but global collaboratively-constructed ontologies hasn't been done yet, and no tools exist to get it done yet.

Should we fail to create that, we're going to be stuck with warring empires struggling to dominate a new hegemony of post-capitalist meaning.

@cwebber @xj9 Kind of paradoxical, maybe, that we will need to build better people first, before we can build better AI.

@xj9 @cwebber But first, we need to learn how to build together things on the next level of complexity beyond FOSS software.

Good AI uses are going to be a little less than a perpetual motion machine, in the sense that we will be able to use it to tackle complexity on a larger scale than ever before.
But first we need to rise ourselves to the occasion like never before, collaborating to build the possibility for that to happen, otherwise a People's AI is never going to exist.

@cwebber @xj9 I don't want a Sino-Russian empire of the near future more than I want a Western Fascist Alliance.
The only way I can conceive of struggling away post-capitalist hegemony from all of the evil empires is making all ontologies available to all people, globally. Meaning actually all. Not just scientists. Not just Americans. Not just fascists. All, as in, really all.

@xj9 @cwebber I said earlier that we need the science, but we need new implementations that account for collaboratively-constructed ontologies. I'm aware FOSS exists.

Global collaboratively-constructed ontologies hasn't been done yet, and no tools exist to get it done yet.

Should we fail to create that, we're going to be stuck with warring empires struggling to dominate a new hegemony of post-capitalist meaning.

@Gin @Stoori @mayel Hahahaha, I do that sometimes with songs, and Spanish aphorisms that make no sense whatsoever in English. Not obvious, and sometimes surreal translations.

For example:
"Difficult for the pig to whistle"
hahahahah

Which (backtranslated) is a Spanish expression some countrymen use to express it's unlikely that something is ever going to happen.

@cwebber @Antanicus We need co-op work plus Free Software first, so we can enable the possibility of building things long term that aren't dependent on corporate fascist economics.

And the education that results from that collaborative work will lay out the foundation that enables people to collaboratively build an alternative to fascist AI.
Everything that goes after that.

It's one way I conceive this thing could be built, and I haven't heard of anyone else propose a convincing alternative.

@Antanicus @cwebber That was the whole point of introducing ontologies to cooperative work. Not a coincidence.

But most people are not ready to think in this way yet. So we have to go about it in a roundabout kind of way.

h boosted

@h @cwebber this ties with the discussion we had the other day about common ontologies for cooperation... It's amazing how many different fields we cover in our threads :D

@Antanicus @cwebber Now, how do we get an anti-fascist "the people's AI" without basic building blocks? Without people-constructed ontologies to begin with?

So that's why I worked on that first.

h boosted

@h @cwebber my point exactly. That's why I used the words "capitalist AI dream". I'm not some anti-AI luddite (it's quite the contrary, actually) but I'm sure against AI developed behind closed doors, where the only ethos is that of profit over people

@cwebber So, back to my point. We need to create the basic building blocks that allow for non-corporate fascist people to become able to construct their own ontologies.
Otherwise we're doomed forever to keep living off the breadcrumbs falling off the table of corporate fascism.

Fascist AI is the worst possible dystopia that no sci-fi has anticipated with sufficient force.
The Matrix film comes close, but reality is going to be a lot less slick and fun.

h boosted

@h Oh sure, no doubt there, and we should all be troubled by that :)