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When an open-source project switches from using github/gitlab/etc issues for bug reports to using a Discourse instance for all discussion, it's a sign the project is falling apart.

Actual bug reports should be kept close to the source code. Support, sure, use a forum.

@gdorn Where do email lists fall into this, in your opinion?

@emsenn For bug reports? Maybe to check if it's an already-reported problem, for users who aren't great at searching bug trackers.

Basically, reporting a bug and participating in general discussion are two different things. Mixing them just makes finding legit bugs harder.

@gdorn So you disagree with how projects like Linux and Emacs and many many other core parts of the FOSS world handle their bug reports?

I'm just trying to make sure you're aware that you're basically saying all the biggest open-source projects do their bugtracking wrong, and if that's what you mean to say.

@gdorn Are you saying you're just comparing web-based GUI issue trackers against web-based GUI forums?

If so, then yes, I agree, the former is better, but I don't think it actually keeps the issue closer to the code like you argue - github issues keep your bugtracking... tied to github. Same for gitlab.

I agree because their UI is more catered toward bugtracking, that's it.

@gdorn Well, as someone who's never heard of Discourse before your OP, it definitely sounded like you were arguing for one bespoke (albeit sometimes FOSS) bugtracking system over another, because you think the latter isn't bespoke.

For what it's worth, @sir recently wrote a great bit of info about using Git and email, and I'm working on keeping editorial information in-repo (by way of literate programming), which'll /actually/ be in-repo bugtracking, unlike Github/lab.

@emsenn @gdorn discourse isn't a bug tracker, it's a forum. I think that's what @gdorn@tenforward.social is talking about. But tbh I've never really seen discourse used for bug tracking, even though I'd sooner reach for mailing lists to fufill the role discourse does

@sir Yea I'm following now - I just don't view Gitlab Issues as being closer to the source code than... any other SaaS the project might choose to use, which made me wonder how email fit into @gdorn's view.

@sir @emsenn

I posted while angry about the dependency hell I'm dealing with. On top of needing to use yet another system (searching both because the transition was recent), the new system likes to add notification flair to the browser tab to grab my attention for things that aren't even slightly related to the issue I'm reporting.

Like if I emailed a mailing list to report a bug that ate my morning and the listserv autoreplied with four congratulations and informed me I was level 2 now.

@gdorn Oh man I have a former boss who would LOVE Discourse, I can tell! He's a /monster/. (Gonna untag Drew I just wanted to bring up his "git email" site which is so well executed imo)

@gdorn @emsenn it seems like "professionals trying to get shit done" is always at odds with "morons trying to make their UI cutsey to Maximize Engagement"

@sir @emsenn
And the assumption that every website's primary goal must be to maximize engagement.

@gdorn Farmville is fun, and makes my brain feel productive. Thus, if I can make my work feel like Farmville, I must be being very productive! @sir

@emsenn @sir

> git push
Enumerating objects: 5, done.
Counting objects: 100% (5/5), done.
Delta compression using up to 4 threads.
Compressing objects: 100% (3/3), done.
Writing objects: 100% (3/3), 385 bytes | 385.00 KiB/s, done.
Total 3 (delta 2), reused 0 (delta 0)
remote: You have earned 5 XP!
remote: Congratulations, you have leveled up! You are now level 7.

@gdorn How did you get this output from next year's betta of Github? :O @sir

@devilish Y'know I'm now thinking about it and I wonder if "engagement" isn't a term like "accessibility," where it often is just used to justify whatever decision was going to be made anyway. (like moving from IRC because it's "inaccessible," but without ever explaining WHO it's inaccesible for or why.)

It's a... moving goalpost term? Is there a word for that? @gdorn @sir

@Wolf480pl I'm thinking more generic like a latin term, the way you can just say "ad hominem" if someone calls you an idiot in debate.

If someone says "but my engagement," you can just say like, "verbum absque," or something, to indicate "that term doesn't have a widely-agreed-upon-enough definition and so to use it in this conversation, you need to say what it means to you, or I'll call your argument illogical by way of this fallacy I've just made up."

@devilish @gdorn @sir

@emsenn @devilish @gdorn @sir
This reminds me of what I called "definition trapping" a while ago, which is a special case of kafka-trapping, in which the attacker:
1. arbitrarliy redefines a well-established term without telling you
2. uses that term
3. expects you to assume the well-established definition
4. blames you for not knowing his new definition and assuming the old definition was meant

It's not the same as using a meaningless word, but it's kinda similar.

@emsenn @devilish @gdorn @sir
oh, I know!
A meaningless word is called "buzzword".

@Wolf480pl ...shit you're right this is like last night when it took me 40 minutes to remember "boilerplate" @devilish @gdorn @sir

And ugh, the gamification. I'm reporting a bug and asking for help, not trying to earn badges. And there's no way to disable the notification flair.

@gdorn Definitely one of my least favorite parts of Discourse. You end up with a bunch of spammy notifications that feel like participation trophies.
@sean @gdorn Wait Discourse has gamification? I already despised it just from the outside looking in, but this keeps sounding worse and worse by the minute

I created an account, replied to a topic, edited that reply, and posted a new topic.

Here's my notifications.

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