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RT @maxdubler
I see us millennials have reinvented the back-to-the-land and commune movements popular among Boomers in the 1970s.

Let me save everyone a lot of grief.

Gardening is a fun hobby.

Subsistence farming is grueling, backbreaking labor that your grandparents worked hard to escape.

@flancian I don’t think this is the full story. Farming that’s modeled on large-scale corporate farming matches that description. Everything I’ve read says that regenerative farming is way easier. The grueling part is fighting nature, planting monocultures, depleting your soil then trying to counteract that by dumping fertilizer, etc.

Here’s an episode of How to Save a Planet that touches on the difference.

@0x1C3B00DA @flancian the answer to these questions *really* depends on the micro-climate you are planting in. there are some areas that you barely have to do anything to grow all your own food quite easily cause the climate is perfect already and then other areas where its almost impossible to grow anything cause the climate is unbearable to most plants.

@liaizon @flancian Good point. My point was made with the assumption that you're not necessarily gonna be able to grow all the fruits/vegetables you're used to eating, especially out of season. You might have to adjust your eating habits to accommodate produce that can grow locally.

And to add on to my original point, I don't think most ppl are expecting to completely provide for themselves. My wife and I have talked about buying land to start a small family farm, but we would still expect to use the grocery store for stuff we can't grow or that grows poorly some season.

@0x1C3B00DA @flancian @liaizon our grandparents stored all out of season vegetables in jars. They canned everything. I still remember helping.

@thedaemon @flancian @liaizon yea canning seems to be an integral part of any sustainable gardening/farming.

@liaizon @0x1C3B00DA @flancian there's a broad and viable space between "plant a garden in your backyard" and "live entirely off the land" that y'all seem to be ignoring.

there's no rule that says you have to grow all your own food, or give up earning money in other ways, or do the whole off-grid thing.

but farming works best when done cooperatively, and on a larger scale: heated.medium.com/small-family

@liaizon @0x1C3B00DA @flancian scoff if you like, but I live in a commune that was started by boomers in the 60s. we grow a lot of our own food. sure, it's a ton of work, but it's only done by members who enjoy it (and it earns the same hourly "wage" as all our other labor). we're not trying to grow all our food, but we have delicious fresh organic vegetables (and dairy products) to feast on year-round.

so, back to the land: not such a silly idea, actually.

@twistylittlepassages @0x1C3B00DA @flancian as a fellow commune dweller (was just there recently for two months but I don’t live there anymore, 17 years is enough) it excites me that other folks living at communes might jump into this random thread. The fediverse is neat!

@twistylittlepassages @liaizon @0x1C3B00DA sorry for the delay! I've been busy at work.

I have to clarify I wouldn't ever scoff at people seeking an alternate lifestyle that is fulfilling to them; I just thought this was an interesting take, and it seemed likely that people do sometimes jump on lifestyles that might not be sustainable -- or might be surprising when considered with their full implications.

@twistylittlepassages @liaizon @0x1C3B00DA I love the idea of self-sustaining or (more likely) mutually-sustaining communes.

I often call them Bolos, following Hans Widmer. That'd be an autonomous unit with about 300-500 people.

@flancian @liaizon @0x1C3B00DA thanx for the clarification! and you're right, ppl do often try to get back to the land & fail because they don't understand what it takes. @bhaugen has some good insights here.

interesting that people like Widmer & Skinner envisioned communes of 300-500, but it seems you need religion to get that many people on board. my (secular) commune hovers around 100, & most are smaller.

there's a searchable directory of communes etc. at: ic.org
(incomplete, of course)

@twistylittlepassages @liaizon @0x1C3B00DA @bhaugen wow! Thank you very much!

1. I've followed @bhaugen (nice to meet you!).
2. I had no idea Skinner had had anything to do with communes. Is this from [[walden two]]?
3. ic.org looks amazing!

@flancian @liaizon @0x1C3B00DA @bhaugen @bhaugen yes, _Walden Two_ was actually the inspiration for my commune! B. F. Skinner even visited a couple of times. it quickly evolved away from its behaviorist roots, though. Kat Kinkade described its early years in her books _A Walden Two Experiment_ and _Is It Utopia Yet?_

@twistylittlepassages @liaizon @0x1C3B00DA @bhaugen @bhaugen thank you kindly!

Noding what I learn about this in [[walden two]], [[kat kinkade]].

@agora [[2021-08-09]]

@flancian @0x1C3B00DA @liaizon @twistylittlepassages you could couple that with automation (robots n shit) to have a really self-sustainable commune

@0x1C3B00DA will check it out, thanks!

I think this all depends a lot on personal preferences and the environment you're working within. I'd rather work with computers personally, but would like to be part of a balanced community or [[bolo]].

@flancian

Might be a good break from the gruelling, mindbreaking labour that the millennials are trying hard to escape though...

@flancian Exactly! There's a strange romanticism about living a life that is very hard, and still is dependent on other people doing industrial and scientific work. (Somebody must recycle steel, produce copper wiring, make the next vaccine, and so on... Unless one's advocating going full stone age, of course. (Bronze age implies way too many specialists.... Even though stone age has them too.))

@Steinar I think [[sustainability]] is probably the key word here, as it is often the case when it comes to lifestyles.

I think it's fine to live unsustainably while we can't do better, but usually as a gateway to a sustainable arrangement in the future.

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