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@fabianhjr Nice, I agree with this. You should go vegan, too. Not just because needlessly harming others is wrong, but also because global enslavement, abuse, and genocide of animals for profit is the most severe reflection of capitalism around. You'd think it's satire.

@alex

(Right now I am becoming vegetarian though, already left red meats and mostly meat dishes like wings behind. Haven't eaten those in some months.

My decision was mostly due to the environmental impact of the meat industry)

@alex

I also favor vegan dishes over normal dishes, but at least in Mexico there aren't many / as convenient as in Europe or other countries.

Most restaurants here don't even have a vegetarian main dish option. :(

@alex @fabianhjr > You should go vegan, too.

I support you in going vegan if you want, but doubt everyone *should* go vegan. There is nothing wrong in killing animals, it is natural. Otherwise we should also convert carnivores into some artificial food, which is absurd. What is harmful is the industrial production of meat, but industrial production of vegetables is very harmful too. Herding chickens and eating eggs is way less harmful than eating fruits and vegetables you buy in your local shop.

@fabianhjr @alex Can't miss a chance to recommend some articles on the subject by Gelderloos: theanarchistlibrary.org/librar
theanarchistlibrary.org/librar

@alex By the way, only now I noticed you are from animalliberation.social. Both articles clearly distinguish between veganism and animal liberation, though, so it still makes sense to discuss them.

@noname @fabianhjr I've skimmed both articles. I fully agree with the premise of the first one; that veganism as a political position is a joke. It is essentially passivism, and it's purely economic. It's not enough. I could ramble on about it.

The second one concludes that because we can never be 100% moral we get to be discretionary about when and how we're moral. I think this is a cop-out that ignores the severity of this issue and undervalues animals' lives.

@noname @fabianhjr I do want to add: veganism as an economic strategy is pretty useless. But our goal as animal liberation activists is to create social change surrounding the way animals are viewed. Specifically, we want animals to be recognized as persons. Even in circumstances where it seems irrational/wasteful, I think it's still important to maintain veganism for the social impact. If we wouldn't eat human corpses, we won't eat animal bodies either.

@noname @alex you are creating strawmans in weird ways.

Alex's point was about how the animal industry is inherently capitalistic and that abusing animals is bad.

Where did he argue that we must stop nonhuman ovnivores/carnivores? Moreover why would it be unsound to leave alone nonhuman ovnivores/carnivores and simultaneously be against the animal industry?

@fabianhjr @alex I just want to say that any industry is inherently capitalistic, meat industry is not really special.

@noname @fabianhjr Btw I'm curious if you had any more counterarguments or you're going vegan now? 😜

@noname @fabianhjr It's also "natural" to kill humans, but it is still morally wrong. I'm interested in having this conversation with you, but only after you've read and understood the common arguments. See here: godfist.com/vegansidekick/guid

@alex @fabianhjr It is not natural for humans to kill humans. To quote Kropotkin: "As soon as we study animals ... we at once perceive that though there is an immense amount of warfare and extermination going on amidst various species, and especially amidst various classes of animals, there is, at the same time, as much, or perhaps even more, of mutual support, mutual aid, and mutual defence amidst animals belonging to the same species or, at least, to the same society."

@noname @alex @fabianhjr

harmful or harmless to who? Denying instead of acknowledging the needs, desires and will to live of other beeings is domination. You have to force them to go to a slaughterhouse.

Criticising capatalistic production has it's own right. But that should not lead to what-aboutism. Both apsects are equally valuable.

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