So, the comments seem to have stopped. I wonder if it makes sense to stick with the original deadline of Feb 26, or just put together a revised proposal now and open a round of voting so we can practice objecting and determining which objections are valid in this framework.

Again the purpose is both a) to think about adopting integrative consent and b) to practice the integrative consent process.

@mike_hales @michaelafisher @Zee @mattcropp @anaulin @johnkuti

@Matt_Noyes 1of3
Responding here not loomio so as to be more lightweight. I find I don’t have much enthusiasm for formal group ‘democratic’ process. I’m happy to be guided thro by a skilled facilitator with goodwill, but have reluctance to internalise and be bound by formal group process of any kind, for any purpose. That’s just temperament - not a large group person, a pair or trio person, responding to actual dynamics of that actual pairing.
@michaelafisher @Zee @mattcropp @anaulin @johnkuti

@mike_hales @michaelafisher @Zee @mattcropp @anaulin @johnkuti @SocialCoop

So it turns out that splitting the conversation into two threads, one on Loomio and one on Mastodon, makes it more difficult to document the process and respond to the concerns. Because you have to work through two threads and because the thread on Mastodon broadened beyond the original proposal. So, it seems that good practice is for discussions of proposals made on Loomio to be carried out on Loomio.

I broke out of Loomio into Mastodon bcos I wanted to be more informal, to chat and extend rather than to DEBATE in a formal polis/demos, formal for/against kind of way. I guess I don’t believe in binding decisions (as distinct from straw polls), certainly, not in loosely bonded collectives. And don’t wish to contribute to expectations of that kind of process. So here I am, in Mastodon 😉
@michaelafisher @Zee @mattcropp @anaulin @johnkuti @SocialCoop

@mike_hales @michaelafisher @Zee @mattcropp @anaulin @johnkuti @SocialCoop


The integrative approach is not intended to be a formal yes/no debate, nor is it intended to generate decisions that are binding on members who oppose them. It is about arriving - or not - at consent so that members can take initiative.

So my model proposal may not be a great example, since it suggested some kind of "thou shalt" imposed on SC, instead of an "I'd like to." (The amended proposal does not do that.)

I don't hold any sense that "thou shalt" behaviour is going on here! I just don't believe that formal processes for consensus - or a formal consensus result, for that matter - are necessarily worth the labour that they exact from participants, or can in fact be expected to be binding. I'm not experienced in this kind of practice (no surprises there!) but have a hunch straw polls might be somewhere around the optimum.
@michaelafisher @Zee @mattcropp @anaulin @johnkuti @SocialCoop

@mike_hales @michaelafisher @Zee @mattcropp @anaulin @johnkuti @SocialCoop

Thanks! I find this discussion really educational.

About formality: Right now we (SC) practice a mixture of loose consent (ops teams in synchronous zoom calls), small turnout votes on Loomio, and general reliance on a small number of active members. That is a kind of formality of its own, just not very intentional, and it involves a lot of unevenly distributed labor. Can/should we alter our de facto formal processes?

It is important for any organization to routinely return to the visioning board, with a strong "why", you can do almost any "how". To gain momentum we need a strong mission and vision statement. What are our aspirations for this platform?

@Matt_Noyes @mike_hales @michaelafisher @Zee @mattcropp @anaulin @johnkuti @SocialCoop

@Matt_Noyes @Jon_Envisioneer @mike_hales @michaelafisher @Zee @mattcropp @johnkuti @SocialCoop

I get the sense that folks are interested in experimentation with democratic governance, but I wonder if at this stage something like IDM or a retreat are solutions in search of a problem.

Is there an actual problem we're trying to solve in this conversation? A project we want to move forward?

Jon, @emi can tell you more about previous efforts to clarify members' aspirations for, FYI.

Thanks Ana, I would love to learn more about these aspiration efforts if @emi would like to tell me.



I'd be happy to share, and maybe we can use that as a launch point for future brainstorming and new ideas for future engagement?

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