Some comrades are saying that advocating responsible lifestyle choices is merely a distraction in the face of the climate crisis. That walking more or going vegan isn't a complete solution on its own and therefore only serves capital.

This is a mistake. Suppose we nationalize meat production. If the masses still demand meat, we will lose more time fixing that. There was meat production in USSR and there is growing demand in Venezuela. We have to start the meticulous work of educating _now_.

Animal agriculture is one of the leading sources of excess CO2, the leading cause of deforestation, and the suffering we impose on hundreds of billions of animals is highly immoral to say the least.

I'm not saying we should stop on individual action. That would be dumb. I'm saying if you're too lazy to change your diet unless it's literally enforced by law, at least don't sabotage the agitprop work of other comrades.

All agitation-propaganda should be sabotaged with reality.

@kot Hm, do you mean we should analyze material conditions and base our work on that?

Any ideology based on anything except physical reality is a lie, imo, and is doomed to failure.

@kot Of course, which is why I'm a commie and a vegan, and trying to participate in The Discourse (tm)
Are you implying I'm wrong somewhere? That's more than likely, lol. Care to elaborate?

I'm only opposed to propaganda, which implies deceit, and agitation-propaganda, which implies destructive deceit.

@kot I'm using propaganda in the neutral sense, more like advertising.

"Propaganda is information that is used primarily to influence an audience and further an agenda, which may not be objective and may be presenting facts selectively to encourage a particular synthesis or perception [...]

In the 20th century, the term propaganda had often been associated with a manipulative approach, but propaganda historically is a neutral descriptive term."

Thanks, Wikipedia.

@deltaidea Are there studies about the potential impact of massively reducing meat consumption and increasing plant consumption?

Like on a grand scale, what would happen if we shifted to a virtually vegan world? Land-use, carbon production, etc

I do think it would be a net positive, but I want harder facts tbh, sometimes things don't work out as expected

@lesbianhacker Good question! I don't remember looking for concrete models or predictions but while I'm searching here're some related articles:
- (see esp. land and water sections)
- Many more links on environment here:

@lesbianhacker @deltaidea I think this video talks about the resource usage if neat, but I'm not 100% sure now.

@lesbianhacker (Necroposting)
This guy has sources that say we can reduce the amount of land we use for agriculture by 75%:

I've heard similar stats before and a helpful analogy: that land is equivalent to the whole area of Africa. We can let at area of Africa to re-wild and grow trees at the cost of switching to almond or oat milk (or any other, there're dozens of them)

@deltaidea And many of those top 100 contributing companies are in the oil business, and the only way to truly get rid of them is to make them unneeded.

Also sometimes people just seek moral consistency in their lives. As long as they understand that more action is needed I don't see an issue.

It's insufferable grand standing and holier than thou "look at my life style" attitudes that get annoying.

@pootz @deltaidea As for myself, I:

* Walk almost everywhere
* Don't buy much more than food and digital downloads
* Don't want anything more than my computer

Food is the tricky aspect for me because I've already striked plenty of ingrediants off my diet already (sugar, gluten, dairy), and my kitchen is a bit subpar. Still I think it's mostly local food, I should double check.

@pootz @deltaidea Also it's worth mentioning that I've flown more than I really wanted to. It seems I can't move out of Nelson without getting regularly scheduled plane tickets bought for me.

Without that regular schedule I'd feel less of a need to fly.


On the otherhand I'm pretty pleased with New Zealand's politician's commitment to climate breakdown. I want to help them achieve it!

The banks are the bigger problem! They're mostly denailist ausies.

A lot of times more eco friendly solutions just ·feel* better too.

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