@datatitian @cwebber but what is the experience like for people using the groupserv?
@datatitian @cwebber

groupserv being short for 'group server', like your gup.pe for example.

i considered writing one that used Announces to forward (which is the only reliable way to do it, forwarding signed Creates with LDSigs only works with *some* AP servers).

but then you are seeing "foobar group boosted this post" since there is no semantic hinting for what an announce is supposed to actually mean.

@kaniini @cwebber oh I see. Yeah it's exactly that - a server that automatically creates a Group actor when you search for or tag a username and then automatically announces anything that comes through its inbox.
I also thought about inbox forwarding, but was unsure about support, so I started with announce

@datatitian @cwebber

we are working on semantic hinting through the use of JSON-LD compound typing, as this same problem exists in the relays.

https://blog.dereferenced.org/leveraging-json-ld-compound-typing-for-behavioural-hinting-in-activitypub

although in this case we probably want a slightly different hint than the one we have devised for relays.

@kaniini @cwebber very cool! I was wondering if it would make sense for clients to infer semantics from from the actor type + activity type combination (i.e. a group's announce is really "x shared this to the group"), but explicit semantics is even better

@GuppeGroups

@datatitian @cwebber @GuppeGroups Cool! So this is like mailing lists but for Fedi, is that a fair comparison?

@deltaidea @cwebber @GuppeGroups similar, but the "list" is a group's followers list, so people can easily add themselves by following the groups

@datatitian @deltaidea @cwebber
I think @GuppeGroups demonstrates a conception of groups that's lightweight and functional. There's still room to do things, probably as organization actors, that is more in line with expectations about mailing lists, but that would benefit from more a robust inbox than we currently have available

@yaaps
Yes, that's the one I meant. What should we do with it?
Do you mean group justice as discussing justice within a group, or a group devoted to pursuing justice, or what?

@GroupJustice @datatitian @deltaidea @cwebber @GuppeGroups

@bhaugen @GroupJustice

Yes :newlol:

Specifically, though, @datatitian named by name a new parent in an opinion question about how to have groups be a good social experience and I do things like start stubs or other placeholders to remind to come back to things later when it would be rude to act before I forget. This is such a stub

@deltaidea @cwebber @GuppeGroups

@yaaps
In other words, whatever, you did not have anything in mind? Or did you?

I must have missed that opinion question, but a group to discuss how to have groups be a good social experience from a justice viewpoint seems so meta-recursive to be worth a try.

It's a very broad and deep topic, though.

I'm still thinking of guppe groups as best used for discussion topics. Does that seem roughly fitting to you? @datatitian ?

So, sub-topics might be,
* What do we mean by justice?
* For whom?
* How does justice apply to @GuppeGroups ?
* Regardless of justice, how do we have this guppe group be a good social experience?
* And, where to start?

@cwebber @deltaidea @datatitian @bhaugen

@bhaugen
@GroupJustice
The kernel of the idea is that Rome ceased to be a republic when emergency powers became permanent

As long as it's predictable who stands to benefit from crisis, you'll have people with incentives to promote crisis

So one approach to enabling a community to deal with crisis without relying too much on the operator would be to appoint a mediator and empower them to enforce the will of the community with respect to a specific complaint

A lot depends on the specifics of the processes and I can speak to the options later
@datatitian @cwebber @deltaidea @bhaugen

@yaaps
That's interesting in an evocative sort of way, but to comment usefully I would need to know
* what community
* what crisis
* what operator
* what's the diff betw the mediator and the operator
* and what complaint.

For example...I mean, an invented example would be ok. As you said, "A lot depends on the specifics..."

@bhaugen @GroupJustice @datatitian @cwebber @deltaidea

@bhaugen @bhaugen @GroupJustice
I was going to try to establish a general case and drill down variations, but we probably want a hypothetical example that's sufficiently similar to the hypothetical applications for Guppegroups to make discussion relevant, but sufficiently different to make it obvious that I'm not proposing these choices as a one-size-fits-all for use cases I can't possibly anticipate. The goal is probably to get a place where we understand community driven workflows for handling abuse with sufficient clarity to be able to build support tools
@datatitian @cwebber @deltaidea

@yaaps
"The goal is probably to get a place where we understand community driven workflows for handling abuse with sufficient clarity to be able to build support tools."

Ok, that's helpful. I did not know what your goal was before.

@deltaidea @cwebber @datatitian @bhaugen

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@datatitian @cwebber I didn't know this project but it looks very interesting ๐Ÿ‘ I'll have another look at it when it's ready for testing,at least in alpha.

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