Matt Slater responds to the rise of the #PlatformCooperativism movement by issuing a call for #ProtocolCooperativism:
> Have capitalists dominated the fediverse yet?
Not yet, but what's stopping them? History makes it clear that relying on the decentralized nature of the protocol is not enough. If we don't want the #fediverse going the way of email (vast majority of users on a handful of #DataFarms), we need ways to ensure that both software development and the deployment of non-capitalist instances are economically sustainable. The point I was making was that #PlatformCoops is one way to do that.
Economic sustainability in a capitalist economy is tricky. Cooperatives find themselves immersed in capitalism and then infected, maybe in the first place by needing to get money from either capitalist markets or competing for investments or grants, which are never as close to "free money" as they might seem.
It's all tradeoffs and good strategy and good tactical maneuvers.
> It's all tradeoffs and good strategy and good tactical maneuvers.
And collective and personal mental transformation...
@bhaugen this reminds me of the discussion that started here:
This is true, yet the cooperative form is still far, far better than any other form of economic organisation as it has democratic values baked in by default. Also, cooperatives are a good way to exploit the capitalist obsession about private property and entrepreneurship in our favor: by posing as "businesses" FOSS projects would be harder to attack as dismantling them would appear as an attack on people doing business, a taboo under capitalism
@Antanicus THIS! 1000 times this! Cooperatives are a kind of anticapitalist aikido. They *both* help us improve our lives in the here and now, *and* prefigure post-capitalist democratic economies (at least in a larval way), all while posing as business-as-usual in a way that's hard to justify attacking (openly).
@Antanicus my position on that is some from column A, some from column B. Some developers don't play well with others, and simply do better work in the BDFL model. Others do well in consensus-based teams like #Loomio. I don't see any need to impose external control on how developer-workers organize themselves. But there's a difference between core development and *deployment*, especially when deploying server-based software as online services. That's where #PlatformCooperatives shine.
I described how I think about the difference between protocol, framework, and platform here:
In the context of discussions here, Facebook or Uber's app are examples of platforms. So a platform cooperative might create a cooperative ride-sharing app.
You may disagree, but that's what I meant.
@bhaugen #SSB, like any distributed/ #P2P system, is perhaps more structurally resistant to capitalist domination than server-client systems based on publishing stuff to the web. But for many of the same reasons, it's much harder for Jo User to understand and use (and the #fediverse is already harder than #DataFarms). I mean, I haven't figured out how to install an SSB client myself yet ;-)
ActivityPub will be easier for people to get into than SSB.
But I'm not sure if and how "structurally resistant to capitalist domination" is possible.
Capitalist logic seeps into everything and tries to exploit it. I think the only reason the fediverse and SSB have not been taken over is there is no obvious way to make big money. Yet. If and when somebody finds a way, it will happen.
Culturally resistant might be better...but we'll see, I lost my prophet license last year....
> But I'm not sure if and how "structurally resistant to capitalist domination" is possible.
Can you name a distributed net technology that's been used by a corporation for #DataFarming in the same way server/client architectures like the web have? Capitalist domination requires some degree of centralization, so you erect tollgates. Pure #P2P networks treat tollgates as damage and route around them.
@bhaugen yeah, I remember that from when I brought up federated social networks on the #CommonsTransition group on #Loomio ;-) I can see the value of a group like #P2PF having a token "presence" there, to make them discoverable from those outside the choir. But it seems odd to hold their main forum discussions in a FB group, instead of on Loomio or some self-hosted forum system.
@bhaugen can you tell me more about the separate of functions between "client" and "scuttlebot"? It could be that the scuttlebots count as servers, which would make SSB a server/client protocol. Or it could be that the scuttlebot is the back-end, and the "client" is the front-end, and together they make a peer in a P2P network.
@strypey yes. But it's federated like how ActivityPub is. We need learn from email
@ebel agreed, Bob and I covered that in another branch of that thread:
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