I am looking for people who are interested and have some expertise in both and .

We've recently started a little group, and I'd like to reach out to broaden my view.

@douginamug @SociocracyForAll @mattcropp @ntnsndr @samtoland @tbeckett @aral

I'd like to learn more for sure. I'm always a bit skeptical when people are like "THIS structure will FIX your PROBLEMS!" especially after trying a couple different governance structures in college student groups... you can spend SO much time talking about group structure and not really get anywhere.

@aral @tbeckett @samtoland @ntnsndr @mattcropp @SociocracyForAll @douginamug

On the other hand, it seems like a lot of people have had some really good experiences with Sociocracy, especially when it comes to time/burnout saving, which is kind of the holy grail of organizational structure.

I'm especially interested in the history of how it came to be, and what sets it apart from other systems (ex: what's between consensus and consent?)

@aaron @douginamug @SociocracyForAll @mattcropp @samtoland @tbeckett @aral I just had a good call with Nathan Snyder (no relation) who works with Encode, which basically puts an ownership layer on Holacracy. Pretty neat.

@ntnsndr It has never been clear to me how Holacracy differs from Sociocracy other than branding and style. I'm interested in learning more. @aral @samtoland @mattcropp @SociocracyForAll @douginamug @aaron

@ntnsndr @aral @tbeckett @samtoland @mattcropp @douginamug @aaron Yes. And sociocracy and holacracy are close. Here is one important difference between the two, and that's the ownership model. Holacracy® is a registered trademark. Sociocracy is open. A world of a difference to me. (To be precise, the "sociocratic circle method SCM", a set of norms, is not but that's irrelevant. Sociocracy for the basic principles is free. Anyone can offer services and call it that.)

@aaron Sociocracy has a learning curve, but it isn't complicated. Consent has a relationship with sufficiency - decisions don't need to be perfect or effective for all time. @douginamug @SociocracyForAll @mattcropp @ntnsndr @samtoland @aral

@aaron @douginamug @mattcropp @ntnsndr @samtoland @tbeckett @aral

Consent: "a decision is made when there is no objection"
Consensus: "A decision is made when everyone agrees"

Consensus can be used like consent; when "I agree" means something like "I see this is good enough".
We favor a slightly more clear definition, plus we teach how to move forward from an objection, instead of it being a roadblock.
It's subtle but consent is embedded in a bigger approach of "fail fast and often!"

@aaron @douginamug @mattcropp @ntnsndr @samtoland @tbeckett @aral The history in 400 something characters.... Quaker-inspired school (Boeke in the NL) runs school on consent . A former student (Endenburg also in the NL) inherits a electrotechnics company from his sociocalist parents and applies and refines what he saw in decision-making at the school he was at. He adds cybernetics (feedback loops, continuous learning and improving). He writes a bookin hte 80ies. It spreads from there.

@aaron @aral @tbeckett @samtoland @ntnsndr @mattcropp @douginamug

True. That puts us as mission-driven sociocracy promotors in a funny spot. One the one hand, I want to say "its' important that you tweak it and make it your own", but on the other hand, I'd rather just have people use it "out of the box" because most tweaks I have seen brought issues through the backdoot that users were not aware of. So we often say "start with the standard, refine later."

@tbeckett Yes. Why?

In the sociocracy world, we typically know about/of each other ;)

@SociocracyForAll There is a lot of experience in and have been around for a long time but and are still a pretty recent development though they are slowly gaining traction both with the traditional cooperative movement and among digital commoners and developers. Would like to learn more about sociocracy can compliment these approaches for sure.

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