Still on FB because of activist groups and a few particular friends who refuse to move - like my brother from another mother Randy Fullerton. Recently, FB's algorithm's have been recommending books and films in Spanish that are all right up my alley. I'm guessing they are based on the profiles of my Spanish-speaking friends and respective likes/comments. Seems like my English language FB contacts are harder for the algorithms to read.

@irmalila

@Matt_Noyes @irmalila funny, I just posted today that I reopened an FB account to participate in activist groups

@CodingItWrong @irmalila

It really sucks. If we could agree on some local activist toolstacks we wouldn't have to do this.

What if we used Mobilizon instead of FB groups/events, Matrix/Element for chat, and - this is looking ahead a bit - Murmurations for resource sharing and mapping? (Not to mention Mastodon for microblogging.)

There are lots of possible tools.

@mike_hales and @disco_coop are the toolstackers I look to.

@Matt_Noyes @CodingItWrong @irmalila @mike_hales @disco_coop
Short term toolstack could be an "extended trinity" like 1) sync: Element.io + meet.coop 2) Discourse/Loomio/, 3) Nextcloud+wiki 4) Social.coop + Mobilison + PeerTube and then specials stack like Odoo, Mailtrain, ...

@Matt_Noyes @CodingItWrong @irmalila @mike_hales @disco_coop
These tools aren proven and mature. However not all are following a decentralised or distributed architecture. We will need to continue exploring and investing in the ideal toolstack, that allows individuals to contribute seamlessly to different collectives without the need to multiply tools / UIs.

@Matt_Noyes @CodingItWrong @irmalila @mike_hales @disco_coop
Agree totally with @bobhaugen and @lynn that it's about protocols, open standard protocols for distributed architectures

@Matt_Noyes @CodingItWrong @irmalila @mike_hales @disco_coop @bobhaugen @lynn
My greatest hope here lies with where promising projects like might build distributed hApps for collaborative and social net features

@Wtebbens
Your comment raised 2 questions.

One is the current states of those projects. I'm familiar with Hylo and doubt that they will ever migrate from their current architecture to Holochain. Not very familiar with Kizuna and Junto.

But my main question is will those projects ever be able to interoperate as is somewhat built into Activitypub/Fediverse projects.

(We're involved in both paths, Holo and AP.)

@Matt_Noyes @CodingItWrong @irmalila @mike_hales @disco_coop @bobhaugen @lynn

@Wtebbens
Followup question: why isn't the Fediverse the base for the toolset you and @mike_hales want?

(I'm not arguing that it is, just wondering why not.)

@Matt_Noyes @CodingItWrong @irmalila @disco_coop @bobhaugen @lynn

@bhaugen
I don't understand ActivtyPub fully enough, to know whether this protocol has enough scope to be a foundation for the whole toolstack. So, I'm agnostic.
I'm a fan of the fediverse. But have a hunch that there's more affordances needed in the stack, than are covered by 'social media' protocols. specifically.

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@Wtebbens @Matt_Noyes @CodingItWrong @irmalila @disco_coop @bobhaugen @lynn

@bhaugen
2of2
When it comes to 'mirror' technologies (aka analytics) and mapping/tagging technologies, for example, I think we're into other domains of protocol. That stuff may *ride* on AP, sure, as 'content'. But I don't think AP *specifies* it.

And certainly, BBB for example isn't within the range of AP protocol? Comms protocols, and all sorts of other stuff there?

So AP is somewhere in a mix? Just one layer.

@Wtebbens @Matt_Noyes @CodingItWrong @irmalila @disco_coop @bobhaugen @lynn

@bhaugen
3of2
Then there are the protocols of WebAssembly, computing on the Edge/IoT, and so on.

So, a mix of layers?
@Wtebbens @Matt_Noyes @CodingItWrong @irmalila @disco_coop @bobhaugen @lynn

@CodingItWrong
Regarding 'seamless' - it's a cute idea. But I don't believe it's possible. The material world is seamless (just ask fungi, or bacteria, or the ozone layer, or a polar icecap, or the Gulf Stream). But the world of categories and cultural artefacts is not. Translations always require labour, and are always imperfect.
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@bhaugen @Wtebbens @Matt_Noyes @irmalila @disco_coop @bobhaugen @lynn

@CodingItWrong
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So - some other aspiration than 'seamless', I think. Something to do with modesty of expectations, and willingness to work - often quite hard - as a user/participant, to make stuff join up? To make 'content' join up. Machines might be seamless sometimes. But culture can't be.
@bhaugen @Wtebbens @Matt_Noyes @irmalila @disco_coop @bobhaugen @lynn

@mike_hales @bhaugen @Wtebbens @Matt_Noyes @irmalila @disco_coop @bobhaugen @lynn this is all interesting theory, but all I'm referring to is: if Facebook is easy to use and open alternatives are not, most people are going to use Facebook

@CodingItWrong
"most people are going to use Facebook"

True. Whether that matters depends on what you are trying to do. Tightly knit organizations will use what they want to use (which will seldom be FB).

Mass adoption might want to include FB, Twitter, etc. but it would be a mistake to depend on them for tight coordination because they can shut you down whenever they want.

@mike_hales @Wtebbens @Matt_Noyes @irmalila @disco_coop @bobhaugen @lynn

@bhaugen @CodingItWrong @mike_hales @Wtebbens @irmalila @disco_coop @bobhaugen @lynn

I think the starting point is organizing the organizers, helping ourselves better coordinate in building the infrastructure and social relationships we want. At the same time, we can promote alternatives -- for example, @irmalila is here as is @ofnusa, both of them dynamite organizers, and OFN USA is now using Meet.Coop instead of Zoom.

@Matt_Noyes
🧡 Organise the organisers

😀 This is why formaciòn - rather than an economics, or some digital tech, or cooperativism, etc - is at the centre of my engagement with making the living economy . . skilful production of the formations of activist cultural and economic practice, that might be capable of producing/cultivating a living economy. And the understandings and skills this calls for

From economics, to organising. From knowledge to the organising of knowing.

@bhaugen @Wtebbens

@mike_hales
Re 'seamless':
1. I don't think that is necessary, but we can do a lot better.
2. "willingness to work - often quite hard - as a user/participant, to make stuff join up"

Too much work. Burnout. Lack of coordination. Organizational failure.

There's a balance somewhere in that mix...

@CodingItWrong @Wtebbens @Matt_Noyes @irmalila @disco_coop @bobhaugen @lynn

For the activity types mapped in the fediverse apps I think it's the way forward.

As @mike_hales points out, AP only covers one part of the needed stack of course.

@Matt_Noyes @CodingItWrong @irmalila @disco_coop @lynn

@bhaugen
Are hApp developers implementing existing federated protocols like ActivityPub, matrix, ...? I'd hope so, as it would make a natural fit, but still challenging also.

@Matt_Noyes @CodingItWrong @irmalila @mike_hales @disco_coop @lynn

@Wtebbens
> Are hApp developers implementing existing federated protocols like ActivityPub, matrix

Not that I know of. However, Pospi of Holo-REA helped to develop and is using the same API as Bonfire in ActivityPubLand.

And here's one Holochain-related project that wants to use multiple protocols (which they confusingly call "languages"):
ad4m.dev/

@Matt_Noyes @CodingItWrong @irmalila @mike_hales @disco_coop @lynn

@Wtebbens @Matt_Noyes @irmalila @mike_hales @disco_coop "allows individuals to contribute seamlessly to different collectives without the need to multiply tools / UIs." I think that's the key. If we want participation by nontechnical folks then we need to lower the friction to "seamless"

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